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Subatoi 
Forum Warrior
Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 380 |
 Posted: 20 Jun 2012 at 18:35 |
 geofrey wrote:
Do what you want, when you want to. Just be aware that all actions have consequences and nothing ever ends. |
^
this
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Myr
Forum Warrior
Joined: 26 May 2011
Location: Orlando, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 437 |
Posted: 21 Jun 2012 at 12:32 |
Rasak wrote:
Rill wrote:
A lot of Illy problems are solved by discussion and persuasion. This is certainly true for larger alliances. I think it's a double standard to insist that smaller alliances and players use troops to solve their differences when larger alliances use diplomacy.
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I disagree with this. Having the troops to back up your position allows you the ability to speak at a diplomatic conference. If you don't have the troops you will be the weaker party and most likely subject to the whims of the stronger. This is how it is in every situation in life. You only have the voice given to you by the stronger party, and they tend to only give that to you when you have the strength to enforce your position. Now this isn't always true. There are times the stronger party stands on noble principles and allows the lesser to speak and heeds what they say, but history shows the former tends to prevail.
With this said, I hope I belong to the later and strive towards that end, but no one knows how they will act in a givin situation until they are neck deep in it.
*Edited to make the post more readable
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I agree Rasak, when ~N~ was smaller there were several times when we had to back down on an issue because the discussion was with someone we couldn't afford to disagree with. That only encouraged us to keep growing and working and building. Since then I have tried to help smaller alliances and deal with them as equals. In this instance I had to draw a line and say enough.
@Marquesta: the deal that was agreed to and carried out she not only had knowledge of but she agreed to (I saw the discussion and her response) and now she is trying to claim she had no knowledge of it.
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Uaithne
New Poster
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
Location: WA
Status: Offline
Points: 17 |
Posted: 21 Jun 2012 at 23:01 |
Myr, I'm assuming that this has to do with the issue of your alliance member settling a city 4 squares from my city. I'm happy to share each and every message that I have sent and received from all involved.
Yes, I should have razed the city when the player was inactive. Though in my defense, I didn't know I had a timeline to raze the city of an inactive player that was placed within the 10 squares of an existing city, which at least at the time, went against your alliance rules. That is why I initially contacted you. Since you told me he was inactive I did not panic. When he returned I again approached you and told you I was unable to raze his city, since again I was not in a panic, did you not tell me that you wanted to teach him a lesson and that you would help me find someone to help teach that lesson? Did you not tell me to wait? My error here was trusting you Myr!
I would ask to see this discussion regarding what I supposedly agreed to and had knowledge of that you say I am now claiming to have no knowledge of.
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Myr
Forum Warrior
Joined: 26 May 2011
Location: Orlando, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 437 |
Posted: 22 Jun 2012 at 02:54 |
Uaithne, I actually didn't intend this for that purpose. That is why in my original post I didn't say who and used 'he' instead of 'she'. I shouldn't have responded to Marquesta here as it derailed the conversation. I will however send you the conversation that I was referring to if you like. The player in question is no longer in ~N~, I just wanted a conversation on these types of situations and used the example at hand.
I have no desire to rehash this conversation, we will not agree. There are many small alliances and small alliance leaders I have worked with and helped, I don't run around Illy stomping on small players. In this instance the small alliance isn't happy, that will happen sometimes. I wish you luck in your efforts.
For others: Eternal Fire, a long time ago, talked a lot about helping new players was creating dependency. He was referring to Care-a-vans and I disagree with his extreme view of not helping new players get started. I have tried growing a new town with only harvesting and wanted to tear my hair out in frustration.
The Dude in chat tonight said sometime about helping players until they hit 450 pop. I like that number, bye that time a players has learned the ropes and should be able to stand on their own more. The thing I am getting at is there are lots of different situations and different views of the topic, but there does have to be SOME point where a player is considered to have been here long enough to know the ropes and be able to handle things themselves. I'm not even referring to a 10k player being attacked by a 100k player, of course that is uneven, I'm just referring to handling everyday situations that happen frequently.
Edited by Myr - 22 Jun 2012 at 04:08
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abstractdream
Postmaster General
Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Location: Oarnamly
Status: Offline
Points: 1857 |
Posted: 22 Jun 2012 at 04:40 |
Myr wrote:
Eternal Fire, a long time ago, talked a lot about helping new players was creating dependency. He was referring to Care-a-vans and I disagree with his extreme view of not helping new players get started. I have tried growing a new town with only harvesting and wanted to tear my hair out in frustration.
The Dude in chat tonight said sometime about helping players until they hit 450 pop. I like that number, bye that time a players has learned the ropes and should be able to stand on their own more. The thing I am getting at is there are lots of different situations and different views of the topic, but there does have to be SOME point where a player is considered to have been here long enough to know the ropes and be able to handle things themselves. I'm not even referring to a 10k player being attacked by a 100k player, of course that is uneven, I'm just referring to handling everyday situations that happen frequently.
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Just to set the record straight, EF does help new players but they have to be in TLR.
Care-a-vans are indeed helpful but not at all necessary. When I began, I did not go into GC until around the second week. By then I was beyond the rainbow and in my opinion out of the Care-a-van level. The first time I said "hello" in GC Emily Jade sent me a ton of stuff, as she often did for newbs. I didn't ask, she didn't ask, she just sent it and it was a wonderful surprise. It was not instrumental in my development by any means, just a warm memory of a player now gone. I built my cap up to that point with no shipments of resources whatsoever.
I personally do not send res to newbs outside my alliance but y'all have at it by all means. Sending resources to help a player who just started, who is an actual newb, is a selfless gesture which perpetuates the goodwill of the community. Sending resources because the player cannot be bothered to build up their own res plots is a silly, self defeating endeavor. I suppose 450 is a reasonable number in the grand scheme. It is way too high in my opinion, but Illy doesn't run on my clock.
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Bonfyr Verboo
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903 |
Posted: 22 Jun 2012 at 04:58 |
There are lots of types of help. I rarely send resources to a new player with more than 100 population; others send to players up to 200 population. If I see a player with more than 200 population asking for resources in gc, all they usually get from me is a nag to "upgrade your resources." Probably this makes me look mean and stingy, but there you have it.
However, providing advice and guidance is something else. I have been playing for a year and still ask players more senior than me (and many more junior who just have good heads on their shoulders) for input and advice.
I see nothing at all outrageous or untoward about players of any size seeking advice and guidance in global chat or by igm, although most players who are in alliances should probably ask in their alliance chat or mail their leadership as well.
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The_Dude
Postmaster General
Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2396 |
Posted: 22 Jun 2012 at 05:31 |
Myr wrote:
***
The Dude in chat tonight said sometime about helping players until they hit 450 pop. I like that number, bye that time a players has learned the ropes and should be able to stand on their own more. The thing I am getting at is there are lots of different situations and different views of the topic, but there does have to be SOME point where a player is considered to have been here long enough to know the ropes and be able to handle things themselves. I'm not even referring to a 10k player being attacked by a 100k player, of course that is uneven, I'm just referring to handling everyday situations that happen frequently.
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OK. First, please respect the underscore.
My comment about 450 pop was intended as this ...
A new player can count on my support as an independent to pop 450 ... this, of course, is exclusive to newbs that are not starting trouble. I am not protecting troublemakers at any stage.
I said 450 pop because that is the pop to make city 2. That is the appropriate time to select an alliance and protection/training becomes the province of the alliance.
Some folks like to go past 450 solo .... that's fine. I'm less inclined to help the larger they get. Such is the choice of a solo player.
But, Myr, I had the impression from your OP that this was not about solo players but, instead, this was about 1 alliance supporting another alliance. If I am correct on that my view is that inter-alliance diplomacy is highly complex and entirely dependent on the individual leaders of the respective alliances. [I.e., "watch your back."]
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White Beard
Greenhorn
Joined: 21 Aug 2011
Location: AUS
Status: Offline
Points: 53 |
Posted: 22 Jun 2012 at 06:35 |
The first time you helped with military and advise, the player did not take your advise. What ever happens now is his/ her problem. it is pretty clear that your advise was not taken. Any help now will just leave that player in the same boat helpless and begging for more and more help.
Personally you help once in what ever capacity you are able after taht they are on their own.
As for new players I personally only help small unallianced players if they have a buy order in the market. I will them send more on top of what they wanted to buy.
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Marquesta
Wordsmith
Joined: 31 Jul 2011
Location: Nevada, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 180 |
Posted: 22 Jun 2012 at 07:57 |
White Beard wrote:
Any help now will just leave that player in the same boat helpless and begging for more and more help.
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Sorry, but I have to say this; that is complete and utter BS! Just because you help someone more than once doesn't mean they will ever after go about like a blind beggar. There are times when people need more aide than others, and more than once, but it doesn't mean that they're always going to be completely dependent on what others may provide.
Being in a training alliance I have seen my share of those that do become dependent, but you gently lean away from them and eventually they stop asking, or they leave the game. Its all the same to me really, because the point can be made that those that grow dependent will eventually drag you into something that you are unable to extract yourself from easily. To my thoughts, this is not the case in this instance.
As I said, there are so many layers in this, that I don't think any one person involved knows everything about it, including me! So, to my mind, no one else really has any business commenting on this incident specifically, as no one else really knows what happened and to whom.
/me steps off soap box
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~~Marquesta
Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them...
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Prometheuz
Forum Warrior
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 230 |
Posted: 22 Jun 2012 at 12:50 |
My view on aid is closer to that of EF and TLR. My view on player growth is closer to that of Belargyle of Dlord who generally does not use prestige as such. (The High King has his own way of obtaining growth and towns
 ). However since Illyriad is a sandbox game, the way in which a player goes about expanding their towns or building their alliance is not some thing that can be imposed or set in stone except by force of arms; skilful networking or deft diplomacy.
In the past, aid and the use of care-o-vans ( I believe the practice was first established by Lorre when he set up PA) has been the subject of much debate. There are those who argued that the game itself should provide incomers with more res for the benefit of the popularity of the game; whilst others said that they wanted to demonstrate that Illy was different to the "raze a newbe" culture of Travian and other similar games.
I personally think it is fair and good to provide Newbes with a one off van and advice but I don't do it for any lofty purpose or for the benefit of the game. I do it because I want to find out if that player has a playing style with which I agree (ie self reliant, sensible, tactical and capable of defending themselves) but I do not provide after that. for me every good player must make thier own way ie survive or fall by their own efforts (although there will always be some exceptions to that rule).
I actually think that to continually provide aid to players outside you alliance has a bad effect on playing style and on the game , in general, because it encourages dependence on others rather than self reliance. The " "dependent players" always seem to acquiesce to the providers and start to rely on them for res and advice. I can think of more than a few "providers" who , I think , exploit this deliberately. Indeed some alliances have been founded on that culture.
So if someone were to ask me at what point does " aid" stop being beneficial I would say;
a) after the first van to a newbe and ;
b) aid to alliances members should only be specifically provided where that player towns have to fulfil a specific role to suit the alliances needs.
prometheusx
(personal capacity)
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When does 'aid' become 'enable'?