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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:01 |
Kumomoto wrote:
But an Illy World without war unless there was mutual consent is not one I would espouse...
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I think you misunderstood what I was saying, hopefully unintentionally. I'm not saying there should be mutual consent in any given war. I'm saying there should be a place in Illy for noncombatants -- people who elect not to participate in war in general. In all likelihood, the only way this can happen is if a substantial portion of the combatants are willing to stand up for the rights of noncombatants to go about their business peacefully.
If there is not a place in Illy for noncombatants, there is not a place for players like me, and that would be sad, for me anyway.
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nvp33
Wordsmith
Joined: 17 Oct 2010 Status: Offline Points: 124 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:06 |
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There are such places Rill, they are called training alliances. With the exeption of the Black/White vs Harmless war I can't think of any time in which training alliances were attacked.
Or you could gather likeminded individuals into an alliance which wont attack ever, complete pacifists and thus reduce the likelyhood that alliance would get attacked, especially if it got big enough players to join. You know... like HUGS...
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Kumomoto
Postmaster General
Joined: 19 Oct 2009 Status: Offline Points: 2224 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:10 |
Rill wrote:
Kumomoto wrote:
But an Illy World without war unless there was mutual consent is not one I would espouse...
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I think you misunderstood what I was saying, hopefully unintentionally. I'm not saying there should be mutual consent in any given war. I'm saying there should be a place in Illy for noncombatants -- people who elect not to participate in war in general. In all likelihood, the only way this can happen is if a substantial portion of the combatants are willing to stand up for the rights of noncombatants to go about their business peacefully.
If there is not a place in Illy for noncombatants, there is not a place for players like me, and that would be sad, for me anyway.
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I would never intentionally misunderstand you...? Unless you think I have some sort of hostility/other motives toward you that baffle me?... All ridiculous!
Regardless... this is a very important intellectual conversation on the nature of Illy...
So what mechanism could be created, Rill for Noncombatants? How would it be judged? Unless it was a pacifist alliance or training alliance? I would imagine that such alliances would NEVER be allowed to conduct war, otherwise they would be fair game... no?
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Kurfist
Postmaster
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 824 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:14 |
Rill wrote:
I'm all for war in Illy as long as it's optional. As in, if a player is generally respectful and does not provoke wars, he or she should not be required to participate in them. This will limit the range of play for these folks (they will only get to go after inactives and NPCs) but maybe that's all the "fun" someone wants to have.
The main problem with newb on newb violence is when it's non-consensual. And I don't buy the "it's a war game" excuse. Illy is only a war game if we make it one.
Establishing the boundaries for what constitutes provocation of war action and how one can go back to peacenik status once having been in a war are matters on which I'd like to hear input.
I don't see why there can't be these two playstyles (and more) in Illy.
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Oh itys only a war game if we make it one, so the spears, and sword, and armour, siege blocks, bows are for decoration right?
The fact that the majority of the games units are for warfare purposes tends to lean on the assumption the game was intended as a WAR game.
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Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin
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Kumomoto
Postmaster General
Joined: 19 Oct 2009 Status: Offline Points: 2224 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:18 |
Kurfist wrote:
Rill wrote:
I'm all for war in Illy as long as it's optional. As in, if a player is generally respectful and does not provoke wars, he or she should not be required to participate in them. This will limit the range of play for these folks (they will only get to go after inactives and NPCs) but maybe that's all the "fun" someone wants to have.
The main problem with newb on newb violence is when it's non-consensual. And I don't buy the "it's a war game" excuse. Illy is only a war game if we make it one.
Establishing the boundaries for what constitutes provocation of war action and how one can go back to peacenik status once having been in a war are matters on which I'd like to hear input.
I don't see why there can't be these two playstyles (and more) in Illy.
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Oh itys only a war game if we make it one, so the spears, and sword, and armour, siege blocks, bows are for decoration right?
The fact that the majority of the games units are for warfare purposes tends to lean on the assumption the game was intended as a WAR game.
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FYI-- if you private message someone, you should clear out your mail so that they can pm you back...
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Kurfist
Postmaster
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 824 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:21 |
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woops, sorry kumo ill take care of that
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Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin
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Erik Dirk
Wordsmith
Joined: 01 Jun 2011 Status: Offline Points: 158 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:25 |
You may say we only represent 1% of the active illy population but we also represent more like 100% if you look at large alliance heads, I'm pretty sure all the top 10 alliances are often represented in these forums and some of these alliances act as the police force of illy (or perhaps the threat of police force) so what is decided here is important.
The problem still is the risk of complete anhilation of a town for no real gain. From when siege was introduced I was unhappy with the idea. I'd really like to see current T2 siege become prohibitivly expensive. say 50K per hour so only really possible in "community cruisades" And a less destructive siege unit introduced, which hits everything but basic res plots for example.
I think we all want risk but at the moment the current war mechanics seem to be like playing a poker game where we can only fold or go all in.
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Amroth
Greenhorn
Joined: 09 Mar 2011 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 78 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:30 |
I am all for newbs fighting...I will happily sell stuff to both. This is a war game. Anyone opposed to war should be in an alliance dedicated to peace. Also war and attacks should only be sent to those who wish to engage in them. Those who wish to remain at peace should be given the option, though I ask you to remember, this game puts all of us together on a map. This means there will be mix ups, players who cross, ego clashes and all manner of human reactions to the condition here.
There are more things found in Heaven and earth and Illy Horatio, then are contained in your philosophies. This is a changing game, evolving and becoming more then it was. All should be careful to own their words, and deeds alone are the measure of all.
Edited by Amroth - 06 Oct 2011 at 02:32
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Kurfist
Postmaster
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 824 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:30 |
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all messages deleted, send away kumo.
I like your idea erik,
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Patience is a virtue, resource giving is a sin
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903 |
Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 02:41 |
Kumomoto wrote:
Rill wrote:
Kumomoto wrote:
But an Illy World without war unless there was mutual consent is not one I would espouse...
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I think you misunderstood what I was saying, hopefully unintentionally. I'm not saying there should be mutual consent in any given war. I'm saying there should be a place in Illy for noncombatants -- people who elect not to participate in war in general. In all likelihood, the only way this can happen is if a substantial portion of the combatants are willing to stand up for the rights of noncombatants to go about their business peacefully.
If there is not a place in Illy for noncombatants, there is not a place for players like me, and that would be sad, for me anyway.
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I would never intentionally misunderstand you...? Unless you think I have some sort of hostility/other motives toward you that baffle me?... All ridiculous!
Regardless... this is a very important intellectual conversation on the nature of Illy...
So what mechanism could be created, Rill for Noncombatants? How would it be judged? Unless it was a pacifist alliance or training alliance? I would imagine that such alliances would NEVER be allowed to conduct war, otherwise they would be fair game... no?
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I don't think you're hostile toward me, although I thought it might be possible you were arguing against a slightly less nuanced stance than I was taking because it would be easier to disagree with. I wasn't even convinced that this was the case -- I merely entertained the possibility.
And the "rules" for such noncombatants would need to be evolved by the community through discussions like this. For example, I am close to coming to a decision that I am going to limit Ryelle to two cities -- with the caravans available in those cities, I am able to assist as many new players as generally appear in global chat, and at the same time hopefully it will be unlikely that I will be perceived as a threat to anyone.
"Rules" about noncombatants could include the degree to which they can freely express themselves without being considered to have provoked a war and would likely be determined on a case-by-case basis within some broad guidelines.
Whether or not non-combatants could maintain armies for the purpose of competition in tournaments or completion of (yet-to-be-released) military quests is another question. Whether they could attack inactive players with those armies could also be an issue.
Certainly noncombatants would be giving up a lot in order to receive their "protected" status. Probably not many players would want to make those sacrifices.
If anyone is wondering why Rill is in mCrow if I wish to be a noncombatant, I am there to seek further training in order to better be able to advise new players in this important aspect of Illy. If it were determined by the community that it is inappropriate to have an alt in an alliance that can participate in war, that would be something I would have to think hard about in terms of Rill's future.
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