Play Now Login Create Account
illyriad
   New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - War Avoidance Game
   FAQ FAQ   Forum Search    Register Register   Login Login

War Avoidance Game

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
ajqtrz View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 24 May 2014
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 500
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: War Avoidance Game
    Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 15:45

It has been claimed that Illyriad is a war game.  Those who make the claim point to the ability of a player to build armies and attack other players as the core function of the game and thus, since it is at the core of the game, it must be that the game is a "war game."  I disagree for the following reasons.

First, a true war game, in my opinion, forces any player in the game to engage in warfare by either defining "winning" as "winning against other players through combat" or making it impossible to "win" without engaging in combat against other players.  Not "impossible" as in "it doesn't happen, ever" but in " if you don't engage the game will not let you reach the goal it calls 'winning'." 

Imagine a game in which the only way to win is to take something from your opponent against their will by using imaginary armies and you get the picture.  It's the necessity of the use of armies that makes it a war game.  Illyriad is not a war game by this definition for two reasons: first, as I have repeatedly argued, any war which is started is done by the choice of at least one side and is only necessary if at least one side has to chosen to go to war.  If no one chooses to do so then the game can be played entirely without warfare between players.  Second, since there is no stated win condition, the declaration that you have "won" because you have warred against another and prevailed, is merely a convention, and thus, somewhat subjective. 

Another line of reasoning which shows that Illyriad is not a war game, is that, overall, the players of Illyriad, almost never go to war.  If it were a war game there would be by necessity a lot more wars.  But since wars are relatively few in Illyriad and most of them end without a clear cut "winner," if it is, strictly speaking a, "war game" it is a pretty weak one at best.  That can be said because definitions do matter.  If you were to, for instance, claim that you were producing a "race game" but only a few of those actually playing it were actually racing,  you would have to expand the definition of a "race game" or come up with a better classification, one which included whatever other things the non-racing players were doing.  In Illyriad, except on relatively rare occasions players and alliances avoid wars and even when they do engage, after the war ends, they pretty much remain as they were before the war started, except perhaps with some restrictions on one side or the other.  Thus, not only are they not forced to go to war, war seldom has a long term effect on the direction of the game.  (There are exceptions, of course.)

Thus, the design of the game does not force it into the category of "war game" nor do most players actually play the game as a war game.  From these two lines of reasoning I would like to offer the following as a definition of what Illyriad is.

Illyriad is a "Empire Building" game in which avoiding war is usually the better long-term strategy.  You might even call it a "War Avoidance Empire Building Game" -- which is a mouthful, to say the least.  In any case, It makes perfect sense to call it that as most players do go out of their way to avoid war, and, given the high cost of making war, the very structure of the game makes war something to be avoided if you wish to grow and survive long term.

There are several things about Illyriad which make it a natural fit as a "war avoidance" game. 

First, it is slow paced, and thus wars can, and do cost a lot of player time.  Most players have the goal of building their empire and unless they are large enough to actually take on another alliance, which most are not, they want to focus their time and energy on building, not using resources to destroy and be destroyed.

Second, war is extremely expensive.  It may take months or even years to build a complete city and to have it destroyed in a matter of a couple days inhibits one's willingness to risk a war.  Most players exhibit the desire to avoid war by either staying out of whatever conflicts arise, no matter how serious the infringement, or by only going to war against those smaller than themselves or at least over which they have some distinct advantage, clustering, organizational strength, experience, etc..  In other words, most players do not engage in war unless they are fairly certain they have a good chance of winning.  There are exceptions, of course, but here we are generalizing.

Third, some players are just opposed to war as a strategy of empire building.  Taking from others what they have spent months and years building, without reasonable provocation, to those of us who are not warrior types, seems to be more akin to the law of the jungle than a civilized exercise in friendly competition.  There are, of course those who view the game from a Darwinian perspective, but overall most players want to have fun and fun to most does not mean engaging in personal vendettas and other uncivilized behaviors.   It's ironic that those who do such things are the very ones who try to say "it's just a game."  If so, one has to wonder why verbal and/or battlefield defeats so often end up causing players to waste time and energy on exacting revenge.  Avatars have no feelings, players do.  But I digress.  The point is, there are players who wish to force Illyriad into the "war game" mold, but the structure of the game itself makes it difficult at best, and the players make it nearly impossible.

So in the end there are good reasons for calling Illyriad an Empire Building game where war avoidance is the predominant and most successful strategy employed, a "Empire Building, War Avoidance" game.

AJ

Back to Top
Rill View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar
Player Council - Geographer

Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 18:25
I think Illy can be played as a war game or a war avoidance game.  While I appreciate the effort to further describe Illy's non-war aspect, I don't think it's all that productive to try to fit Illyriad in a particular mold.

Illy is what we make it, on an individual basis and as a social construction.
Back to Top
Hyrdmoth View Drop Down
Wordsmith
Wordsmith
Avatar

Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 164
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hyrdmoth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 19:36
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Illy is what we make it, on an individual basis and as a social construction.
I agree with this. Illyriad is a sandbox, and thus one can choose to play in any way that you wish, within the constraints placed upon you by the in-game actions coded for by the developers.

War naturally occurs when your personal goals come into conflict with those of others.

I agree that the lack of a winning condition, as exists in most other similar games, reduces the impetus for war, as do various game design choices that make war expensive, and rarely profitable. Though, consider, waging wars bankrupted many a medieval monarch, and lost a few of them their lives. What could be more expensive? Yet those centuries were rarely without war.

This is because war is the ultimate way to ensure that your personal goals take precedence over someone else's.

I think that this, in some respects, makes Illyriad a realistic political-economy game, and as the saying goes, "war is politics by other means," so while Illyriad is not merely a war game, it is certainly a game with war in it.

Characterising it as a "war avoidance" game would therefore be inaccurate in my view.
Back to Top
Sargon View Drop Down
New Poster
New Poster
Avatar

Joined: 24 Jan 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sargon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 20:59
Your own definition ajqtrz, read in the traditional way, puts Illyriad in he genus of war games with the difference that here war is somewhat limited and avoided. I guess it boils down to the typical problem that a genus and a species below it have the same name, nothing that is likely to be changed...
Back to Top
Dungshoveleux View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster


Joined: 09 Nov 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 935
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dungshoveleux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 21:24
It is an empire building harvesting crafting trading diplomatic war game.
It's all those rolled into one like a grand unified theory of everything (except the stuff with no known use).


Edited by Dungshoveleux - 14 Apr 2016 at 21:25
Back to Top
Jejune View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 1015
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jejune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 21:48
I don't know if I'd term it a "War Avoidance Game." From a marketer's perspective, that's a nightmare tagline. 

But this is definitely a game where war is largely avoided. And I think that for all the reasons listed, it makes sense, because although the warfare mechanics in Illyriad are complex and interesting, war itself is a bit cumbersome. So, there are checks and balances built into the fabric of the game that make going to war quickly and/or often rather prohibitive.

That being said, you can also argue that maybe there isn't enough war, and because of this, it has perpetuated large server wars that exponentially more damaging than simply two alliances duking it out. Big players tend to keep building troops until they reach a critical mass where they are desperate to try and get value for them. This becomes the impetus for big wars sometimes. Tourneys can help, but to date they have been few and far between.

Back to Top
palmz View Drop Down
Greenhorn
Greenhorn
Avatar

Joined: 05 Jul 2015
Location: BL
Status: Offline
Points: 58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote palmz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2016 at 22:13
War is merely a diplomaitc tool, the least effective one. 
Back to Top
jtk310 View Drop Down
New Poster
New Poster
Avatar

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtk310 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2016 at 16:33
I think the devs have been clear that this is a strategy game: "Illyriad is a browser-based massively multiplayer online real-time strategy game (MMORTS)." Like most strategy games, there are multiple methods of play. I know people have said this is a 'war game', but I think that is more a shorthand for this style of MMORTS games, many of which contain a fighting element. It's a strategy game, so both war and avoidance of war are valid strategies depending on the desired outcome. Is MMORTS not a sufficient description? I believe we can all agree that this fits much better than either 'war game' or 'war avoidance game'. I will say that if when I had signed up for the site it had said "A grand war avoidance game!" I almost certainly wouldn't have played. This description of the game is the first thing in the FAQ. Let's just call a spade a spade.
Back to Top
asr View Drop Down
Wordsmith
Wordsmith


Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 109
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2016 at 12:27
Your attack and defence power will determine who is the winner - lets name it "big player".

Smaller player don't have any winning change over big player. That means there isn't game built system what would allow you to take down bigger player.
So only way is alliances. But general way of the games is that alliance will be like a single "big player", smaller alliances can't win a alliance what is better in defence and attack.

My point is that its a military game where that trait can wipe you off the map, you may have other stats high like doing quests, killing NPC, mysteries, etc these things are like minigames inside a military only game.

Unless you play like a human. You have military power but you choose to let others play, but then you may be a good player but there will be a players who don't give a ... and destroy you.


Back to Top
Gragnog View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 598
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gragnog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2016 at 12:41
I think you missed the boat again. Before the current SIN vs Shark/ VIC / Unibrow war SIN was a tiny alliance compared to them. David took down Goliath easily. Small alliances and players can totally destroy the big boys. Its not the size that matters but how you use it that makes the difference.
Kaggen is my human half
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.