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Unintended Consequences

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Rill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 15:49
I am not attempting to suggest in this post that the ability to sell prestige is either good or bad.  Rather, I intend to support the suggestion that the ability to sell prestige in the game does have consequences; whether these are intended or not is something that can only be known by the developers.

Arguing that obtaining gold from selling prestige is equivalent to obtaining it by selling resources produced in one's city or gathered from the map is disingenuous.  Obtaining gold from prestige is nearly instant and requires barely any interaction with the game mechanics (other than obtaining a few items from the market needed to produce the prestige item).  Obtaining gold from items produced within the city requires having the relevant building and production time creating the items; similarly obtaining gold from harvested items requires having buildings AND devoting harvester time (as well as time collecting the items).  Even making gold by market arbitrage requires significant interaction with the game, as well as assumption of some risk related to increases or decreases in price.  (Not to mention serving a desirable purpose in making the markets more efficient.)  Selling prestige is thus not equivalent either in requiring skill or time to any other game activity.  

Insofar as "pay to win" means "obtaining an advantage from payment that would otherwise require skill or time," selling prestige therefore qualifies as pay to win.  Personally I think that pay to win should more properly be defined as "obtaining OVERWHELMING advantage from payment that would otherwise require skill or time," and I am not convinced that selling prestige meets that criteria.  On the other hand, I haven't had to fight prestige sellers.

Those who suggest that prestige does not affect troop building are conveniently ignoring the fact that being able to have low taxes (courtesy of selling prestige) allows one to produce more resources and research points, thus supporting more troop sov.  Juicing production of research points and possibly even other resources with prestige also allows more troop sov.  So a prestige seller and/or user can not only support more troops but produce them more quickly.  Does this make Illy pay to win?  Not with concerted opposition from many non-coiners, but it definitely weights the scale in that direction more than had been the case previously.

There may be other unintended consequences of prestige sales.  For example, if much of the gold from prestige sales is used to support large armies, that is gold that is sucked out of the economy.  This can lead to deflation, a drop in the prices of other commodities.  It is hard to tell whether the current collapse of commodity prices is related to this effect or to a balancing between the costs of commodities produced within the city and items that are harvested from outside the city.  (With the increased bonuses from crafted equipment, the value of troops produced with in-city items falls in relation to items gathered from outside of the city; it is hard to tell how much of the current collapse of city commodities is related to this effect.)

Whatever the cause, deflation in commodity prices decreases the ability of non-paying players to make up gold values through sales of in-game items, increasing the advantage to the paying player.  This effect may be balanced by corresponding deflation in the price of prestige items, but assuming a willingness to spend large sums of real-world money (which are not that large in comparison to some games), prestige is essentially an unlimited resource for the paying player, so the decline in prestige prices will not have the same effect as deflation in commodity markets has on the non-paying player.

All of these effects, however, pale in comparison to what I see as the main consequence of the ability to sell prestige for the game of Illyriad.  I am referring specifically to the effects on the developers' profit model.  Previously the game depended on spreading prestige purchases among a large number of players; because there were a limited number of things one could do with prestige, the amount of prestige any single player might be motivated to buy was limited.  Although increasing the number of cities substantially increased this amount, it was still limited.  However, as a result of the ability to sell prestige, the demand for prestige became if not unlimited at least substantially less limited, since demand could now be spread among multiple players.

What this means is that Illyriad is now (potentially) substantially more dependent on a relatively small group of high-spending players.  As long as these players are still spending, the developers have little incentive to either improve the game for the large majority of players OR to attract substantial numbers of new players.

It is this last fact that is most concern to me in terms of the long-term health of Illyriad.  The developers have made changes in the past year or so that allows them to extract substantially increased income from the existing, declining playerbase.  (Selling prestige is one; increasing the number of cities is another.)  The developers thus have less incentive to attract new players.  But the community needs new players to keep the game lively.  New players bring fresh perspectives and new skills.  They remind us what we love about the game.  And they replace established players who for reasons of life events or boredom cease to play.

The bottom line is that wringing more and more money from a smaller and smaller group of players WILL have consequences for the game long-term.  This is the consequence, intended or not, that has me most concerned.


Edited by Rill - 01 Mar 2016 at 15:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 16:10
Remember there r some players who can't buy pres for real money but have enough incoming of gold (through sat accounts or a gold farming alt or thieving ) to buy pres from market and use it in there advantage . they buy the pres so that sellers get the money . 
u know if u only use pres for ur advantage (and not sell it for gold ) u still make big affects on results of conflicts as u can get +20% boast for basic res , and also a boast for attack and def values of troops . 
so i think option to buy/sell pres through in game gold lvls that advantage to an extent 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 16:23
Originally posted by Attila Attila wrote:

Originally posted by Brandmeister Brandmeister wrote:

When prestige trading was first implemented, I worried that Illyriad would become P2W. Since then I have seen that my concerns have never come to pass.


Debatable.

Prestige users have a clear advantage. As long as the supplies come in, you can keep your city alive, not matter if its under heavy pult fire. All you need is the mats coming in, and you can prestige all day.

In fact, its widely celebrated in YARR that they prestiged someone up 11k population in one hour. Are you implying that is not clearly pay to win?



This conversation is specifically about whether making prestige sellable and tradable has advanced the game towards P2W. Players have always been able to speed construction with prestige, at least since I joined in 2012. Accelerating construction and speeding caravans are the least innocuous form of pay to win, to the point where they are a convenience not a true power function. The building materials cannot be purchased directly with prestige.

While prestige building might assist in defending a siege, it is worth pointing out that a blockade can easily squeeze off the flow of caravans, and that prestige building alone cannot save a city from the hourly barrage of catapults and rams. The best it can do is buy you some time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 16:36
Rill, the present "deflation" of commodity prices exists only because items are priced relative to the consumable commodity gold, which has utility within the game. Gold is presently valuable because (presumably) troop upkeep has become burdensome due to a lack of tournaments. Items have become less valuable relative to gold because armies are full, troop queues are stopped and thus items are building up, and gold is drawing down.

Regarding the prestige market, it is shallow. Scraps were 25 million before Christmas, and are now at the 15-18 million range. This is also quite different from pure P2W where conversion prices are fixed by the developers, and the supply and demand are infinite at that rate. Although most such games have a black market if the fixed rate is sub-optimal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 18:07
as a perpetual game, illyriad extends a natural advantage to accounts that were here first. in most cases, prestige seems to offer a motivated player the ability to support the game and in so doing "catch up" to a competitive level of accomplishment. recall that the game also supports massive indemnity payments from defeated alliances to victors in the case of war. that gold can as easily be used for the purpose the OP describes as gold from prestige sales.

there are some ways in which prestige may threaten the balance of the game, but the sale of it for gold seems very unlikely. there is a silly amount of gold in illyriad; i mostly worry that there aren't enough opportunities to use it to effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjc2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 18:57
i agree with angrim on the silly amount of gold in game.  i mean just look at what terraforms go for, i sold them on a regular basis for 10+ times what i thought they should have been worth but there was always another customer willing to pay the market price so i saw no reason to lower mine to what i thought they were worth.  and honestly the only reason i have stopped selling terraforms is RL has started becoming too busy for me to complete them so i started an actual alt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 19:42
Originally posted by Sun Tzu Sun Tzu wrote:

what the heck are you talking about.  i saw you get your ass kicked by TenKulch who was using one castle against your many and not much more than elite divisions and skill.  go somewhere else 


I'm not sure of whom you are thinking because I don't believe I've ever been in a one on one with TenKulch. 

AJ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 20:40
I am thinking of you, and I dont believe I said you were in a one on one with TenKulch.  What I did say was that TenKulch, who decided that it was only necessary to use one castle against both your accounts, quite literally drove you into madness and caused you to start razing yourself, TenK using not much more than elite commanders and elite divisions with proper gear on correct terrain.  which means you can do a lot in this game if you apply some knowledge, hard work, skill, etc.  
What Angrim wrote is correct imo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brandmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 21:29
A Google search of "ajqtrz raze himself" returned the following article:

https://illyriadtimes.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/high-leader-aj-uses-alt-to-raze-himself-ahead-of-bb-siege-doubles-down-on-surrender-demands/

I cannot speak to its veracity, other than the fact that ajqtrz himself explained his strategy.

I'm a little skeptical that one city could defeat many using only elite divisions. The most you could kill with a full elite army seems to be a few hundred troops.

Edited by Brandmeister - 01 Mar 2016 at 21:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajqtrz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 21:52
Originally posted by BARQ BARQ wrote:

Remember there r some players who can't buy pres for real money but have enough incoming of gold (through sat accounts or a gold farming alt or thieving ) to buy pres from market and use it in there advantage . they buy the pres so that sellers get the money . 
u know if u only use pres for ur advantage (and not sell it for gold ) u still make big affects on results of conflicts as u can get +20% boast for basic res , and also a boast for attack and def values of troops . 
so i think option to buy/sell pres through in game gold lvls that advantage to an extent 


Okay, let's say you CAN sustain 100k army on the gold generated by one city through gathering, crafting, etc....  Is there a limit at which the city cannot sustain the army of a given size?  Of course there is.  And if you need supplies can you not get them with gold?  Of course you can.  And if you can turn prestige into in-game gold does that not mean you can have more gold than the guy who has no prestige?  Of course it does.  And, finally, if you have unlimited gold do you stop at 20 squares of sov?  Not if you don't need too.  And if you have 50 squares of sov does that not mean you can produce a lot faster?  It all adds up to fact that if you can generate X amount of gold without selling prestige, you can generate a lot more gold that AND selling prestige...which means, all things being equal, you CAN pay to win.

Remember, this is a theoretical problem waiting to become a reality (or perhaps already a reality?).  It's only a matter of time.

AJ
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