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Dragonwort
Wordsmith Joined: 10 Feb 2014 Location: Central USA Status: Offline Points: 139 |
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Quote Reply Topic: Unimportant FoodPosted: 24 Dec 2014 at 12:51 |
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I have another military question (it never ends...lol..)
I have skimmed through most of the general questions within the last 2 years and can find nothing on the 5/5/5/5/5 military city.
I was once told in GC that the thread "Why a 7 food city is so important" is obsolete and that statement was not opinion but fact and provable.
While I may be highly opinionated, I do try to keep an open mind and those opinions are subject to change with new information. My experience (limited) has shown that military size is dependent on gold production which is dependent on the tax rate of the buildings(pop) which is dependent on food.
IF there is a better way, I'd love to see it. Maybe it's about sovereignty and troop rebuilding times; and of course you can drive any resource, gold included, into the red if you resupply from another city. There are no limits if you are willing to do that. I'm not, at least not during peace with no tournaments under way.
And so......will one of the players familiar with the 5/5/5/5/5 military city explain how it works? Better yet; create a help topic on the matter. If one exists, please point me in that direction..Many Thanks
Dragonwort
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Just another wrench in the works..
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Brandmeister
Postmaster General Joined: 12 Oct 2012 Location: Laoshin Status: Offline Points: 2396 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 24 Dec 2014 at 14:38 |
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I will take a crack at it.
When you choose a 7 food plot, it makes the final city size 40% bigger. But you usually have a 3 plot of another basic resource. Troop sov consumes all basic resources evenly, so eventually that 3 plot limits the final sov the city can support without going negative in that resource. A 5/5/5/5/5 plot gives equal amounts of all basics, and removes that limitation, allowing for considerably more production sov to be claimed. Since the city is 40% smaller, the gold production is 40% smaller, too, and the final army size would be smaller. But your replacement speed would be very fast, up to 5/3 faster. It is an interesting theory, but probably not very useful in practice. You will likely never hit 10 cities using 5 food towns. Also, some buildings like infantry quarters consume basics, which would cut into basics for sov. Finally, you probably wouldn't be able to use all the main production buildings, which would limit your items (but I haven't run the math on that). I think it would be easier to just buy or ship in basics, and run negative on the 3 plot resource during tournaments. |
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Dragonwort
Wordsmith Joined: 10 Feb 2014 Location: Central USA Status: Offline Points: 139 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 24 Dec 2014 at 15:24 |
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OK, I think I get the theory... It's all about troop rebuilding speeds; being willing to trade 40% less troops (in the case of tier one spearmen) for a much faster rebuild time and no tenth city..
I suppose this might be a viable alternative for a mercenary alliance who is constantly losing and rebuilding troops or during a war or tournament.
I would think the best option for many players would be something between the 2 extremes of 5/3 faster build times and unmodified build times....one I have seen employed is the 5/5/5/3/7 city. I'm guessing the idea that once the city buildings and wall are leveled up to max, the least necessary resource is stone. If somebody successfully blockades you and starts tearing down your wall; you'd be in a world of hurt though..
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I have 7 food cities for clearing and sieging abandoneds and have been able to achieve decent rebuild times...of course, it would not be fast enough for a tournament; but this is an interesting theory and might be fun to experiment with variations of it. Thanks for the info Brandmeister
UPDATE: Again thanks Brandmeister for clarifying the 5/5/5/3/7 city purpose and function
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Edited by Dragonwort - 25 Dec 2014 at 10:27 |
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Just another wrench in the works..
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Brandmeister
Postmaster General Joined: 12 Oct 2012 Location: Laoshin Status: Offline Points: 2396 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 24 Dec 2014 at 16:18 |
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The 7 food cities to which I referred were the typical 5/5/5/3/7. That configuration probably represents 80% of Elgea, minimum. Most such cities will have +150% to +200% troop sov when they are building troops for a tournament. Some players temporarily drive that higher by going negative in research points, or cutting taxes and suffering a large gold deficit, or both.
The "least necessary resource" for choosing the 3 is whatever resource your military buildings don't use. Infantry quarters use stone and iron, so it would be a 3 wood or 3 clay city. Cavalry parade grounds use wood and clay, so they would be a 3 iron or 3 stone city. I don't know what's inside a 5/5/5/5/5 city. You'd have to ask someone who uses them (if anyone). I would be curious if they have military or diplomacy buildings inside, as those would ruin the symmetry of the 5 resource plots. |
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Solanar
Forum Warrior Joined: 11 Jan 2015 Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jan 2015 at 19:48 |
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In regards to the "Likely never hit 10 cities" thing, what about once you already have 10 cities? I'm apt to relocate everything in the near future. When I'm looking at places to move to, I find myself less concerned about 7 food than city placement. I suppose it's possible to terraform the spots, but in all honesty, it feels like perhaps the effort is more than the results will be worth. A focused city can accomplish a lot without needing every possible plot at level 20, and moreso when your other 9 cities are nearby and can compensate for deficiencies. I haven't done the math, but I find myself pretty comfortable with the idea of cities either of 7 food, the 5/5/5/5/5 variety, or something in between.
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Rill
Postmaster General Player Council - Geographer Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 6903 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jan 2015 at 20:30 |
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Even after you have 10 cities, a 7-food city will allow you to run a higher tax rate to maintain a larger army. So again the major consideration is whether you are going to maintain a large army in the long term or consistently be losing troops and wanting to replace them fast.
The basic tradeoff is between ability to maintain large forces or replace lost troops. Since there tend to be large gaps between tournaments and wars, many people tend to build for the ability to maintain large armies rather than replace them quickly.
What I've seen in practice is that many times in a war or tournament players will change sovereignty flexibly: food sov when armies are big and need tax support, military sov (paid for by lowering taxes and increasing resource production) when armies have been depleted. With this flexible approach, the advantages of a 5/5/5/5/5 city in terms of being able to support additional military sovereignty are not as noticeable.
I haven't tried it myself, but I would imagine that for a 5-food city with an emphasis on quick troop replacements, the presence of military sov bonuses could become a significant additional factor in terms of city placement.
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Brandmeister
Postmaster General Joined: 12 Oct 2012 Location: Laoshin Status: Offline Points: 2396 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jan 2015 at 20:51 |
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I would like to point out that with multiple cities, you don't have to make them all the same. It is entirely possible to mix some 7 food cities for larger peacetime armies, with these theoretical production-focused cities for rapid troop replacement.
Solanar, a middle ground might look like a forest tile favored by elves: 6 wood, 4 clay, 5 iron, 5 stone, 5 food. That raises the 3 resource bottleneck to 4 (a 33% gain). It also allows for at least 1 archer's field. Forests tend to have lots of +2% ranged sov or +2% spear sov in large clusters. Presumably you could find a hill with 6 clay, 5 iron for a spear city there. Or just go all 5's. Maybe a 6 food tile is a balance between the two approaches, assuming there is at least 4 of every resource. |
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Tamaeon
Wordsmith Joined: 19 Dec 2011 Location: Centrum Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 11 Jan 2015 at 21:57 |
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5 equal offers by far the most flexibility.
The choice ultimately comes down to the troop upkeep reduction buildings. There is one for each type of unit in the game. These buildings consume 2 resources in addition to food.
Main resource consumption: 2700/h
Secondary resource consumption: 1100/h
As Rill pointed out; generally players will lower taxes and increase military sovereignty when their armies have been depleted; then gradually switch military sovereignty for food sovereignty, as their armies grow in numbers.
The reason for this is that military sovereignty requires basic resources (in addition to gold and RP) for upkeep. In contrast, b
asic resource sovereignty
(including food) only requires RP and gold.
Military upkeep reduction buildings can reduce total gold upkeep by up to 52.5%, which ultimately makes them the most important factor in deciding what kind of troops to build in each city.
The sovereignty plots around a city should be the very last thing to consider when choosing what kind of troops to build.
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"How happy is the blameless vestal's lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each prayer accepted, and each wish resigned."
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1853 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 12 Jan 2015 at 04:01 |
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I looked at 6 food squares pretty seriously towards the end of the war. 5 food is really restrictive in terms of buildings that I felt I really wanted to have at a high level etc.
The issue was that as far as I remember finding 6 food in the distribution that is useful is pretty hard. |
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Brandmeister
Postmaster General Joined: 12 Oct 2012 Location: Laoshin Status: Offline Points: 2396 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 12 Jan 2015 at 06:27 |
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Tamaeon, if you are building a 5 food city to maximize sov structures, why would troop sov be the last thing you consider?
When you use the 5 food approach, do you still use infantry quarters and other upkeep discount buildings? Doesn't having 2 or 3 really cut into the possible sov? What tax rate do you set? I had been assuming 0% or otherwise very low. |
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