The Proper Punishment for Thieves

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         Personally voted for #2 "Return what was stolen - the universe is in balance again".

Then the thief is warned and put on probation;

if caught again (s)he must return double the amount or be thieved back;

if it the thieving goes on and all diplomatic efforts have proven useless, military retaliation and escalation is in order.

Poll Question: What do you think is the proper punishment for thieves?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Nothing - it's all good	14	[19.44%]
Return what was stolen - the universe is in balance again	11	[15.28%]
Return 3x what was stolen - thieving shouldn't be encouraged	11	[15.28%]
Return 5x what was stolen - you're lucky to keep both hands	0	[0.00%]
Return 10x what was stolen - see, crime doesn't pay	6	[8.33%]
Return what was stolen & lose 1 city - ouch	0	[0.00%]
Return what was stolen & lose half your cities - super ouch	0	[0.00%]
Get razed from Illy existence - all thieves must die!!!	7	[9.72%]
Other - explain	23	[31.94%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

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Babbens Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Wordsmith Joined: 26 Aug 2010 Status: Offline Points: 165	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 09:03
	Personally voted for #2 "Return what was stolen - the universe is in balance again". Then the thief is warned and put on probation; if caught again (s)he must return double the amount or be thieved back; if it the thieving goes on and all diplomatic efforts have proven useless, military retaliation and escalation is in order.

Darkwords Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster General Joined: 23 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1005	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 09:24
	I voted other, this is due to the fact I beleive different cases deserve different treatment. i.e. If someone just happened to send a few theives at one of my cities, because they are inexperienced in the game, or just because they were bored then I might let it go. However, if someone continually steals from you, or sends a huge theif force then they must be made to pay, I would say at least equal to what was taken plus the resources required for their theif force (as in books, saddles and horses required to build it). Also the situation may make a big difference, for example was the person simply stealing for their greed, or did they steal from you during a tourney, in the hope to limit your ability. Basically each situation is different and therefore each punishment should be different if there is any form of justice.

Auraya Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster Joined: 17 Nov 2011 Status: Offline Points: 523	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 09:41
	Really does depend on size. I don't thieve active players but if I did ever make a mistake, I wouldn't like it if someone demanded 10x the amount back.. although I would probably send an apology and twice the res since it was my mistake. Genuine mistakes do sometimes happen. If a large player thieved from a small active player for no reason other than greed.. I'd personally raze their city if I was permitted. What's the point? They have very little 90% of the time. For players of the same size.. if it's no reason other than greed, send back 10x and never return if you want to pacify me. If you don't care, be prepared to have my thieves in your city as often as I can send them for as long as I can be bothered to thieve you. (Although I'd have to get alliance permission first so more than likely leadership would sort something diplomatically :P) Yes, I'm pretty harsh about such things but I don't thieve active players - not because it's alliance policy but because I genuinely disagree with it unless there's a reason. Illy isn't like other games, if you don't like the 'carebear' attitude then go play something else. Edited by Auraya - 06 Jul 2012 at 09:42

Gilthoniel Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Forum Warrior Joined: 11 Oct 2011 Location: Cuiviénen Status: Offline Points: 211	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 11:10
	I voted other because I think it is difficult for the whole game to agree a fixed punishment for those who are caught and proved beyond doubt that they were guilty. This thread shows the variation that people have in terms of punishment. Theft has been designed as part of the game and so it will continue to ocurr. There are countermeasures that people can take to prevent it and to some degree if someone is robbed they are partially to blame for not preparing defences. Each theft will take place under different circumstances and so I think it will be down to the alliance leaders of those players concerned to agree a compensatory cost where theft has been proven otherwise matters may escalate from there....

Gragnog Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster Joined: 28 Nov 2011 Status: Offline Points: 598	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 11:22
	I voted other. Here goes explanation. Thieves are part of the game. If they were not, they would not be present. It is all about using them. Most of the problems arising in game are dealt with in one way or another. Also trying to punish and track thieves through GC is really amusing to watch. Quite often everyone immediately assumes that the first person to cry foul in GC is the poor soul who is being picked on. Wake up people. Most of the time you are being taken for a ride, and often there is a reason why people are thieved. Is it cowardly to attack someone smaller than you with thieves? I say depends on the provocation and reason. If some provokes me or if I catch them doing something, I will not run to GC crying (unless I am taunting someone) but will use my alliance to help me. If I did something that resulted in someone attacking me, of course I would whine in GC and work you all up for support pleading my innocence, thats what the GC mob is there for.

Ander Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster General Joined: 24 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1269	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 14:45
	I choose other. If his thieves are caught, then the thieves are dead and player has little thief defense. If they are not caught but you traced them back to his city, you can still assume that his other cities are low on thief defense. I'd say, count him as an open target and thieve him back. You can also tell about him to your friends, so that they can also have some incognito fun.

Rorgash Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Postmaster Joined: 23 Aug 2011 Status: Offline Points: 894	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 15:00
	so if i take a screen shot outside your town after waiting around all day and you have sent scouts out on a quest and they are returning, and i get someone to make a thieving against me so that i get a report saying it did happen, i could demand tons of res from you? Report with name or it didnt happen, and if you alone believe then handle it yourself with units and army.

SugarFree Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Forum Warrior Joined: 09 Feb 2012 Status: Offline Points: 350	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 16:23
	i may ask people to stop to teach the community how to defend against thieves? thank you.

Binky the Berserker Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Forum Warrior Joined: 19 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 257	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 17:03
	same as what happens when saboteurs get caught: raze from illy existence! thieving is even worse, but i can't find anything else that would fit.

Mafro Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Forum Warrior Joined: 01 Apr 2012 Status: Offline Points: 312	Posted: 06 Jul 2012 at 18:48
	Great responses all...very interesting perspectives. I'd guess it's safe to assume that those that vote "Nothing - it's all good" and "Return the stolen stuff - the universe is in balance again" thieve active players and want minimal punishment when they are caught. And conversely those that want to raze them from existence probably think thieving shouldn't even be part of the game. There have been lots of comments about the proper punishment depending on the situation, so here's my story. I am a relatively small player, 12K pop. Most of my time is spent trading on the market and sending care-a-vans to new players that speak up in GC. I take the wealth I've earned through trading and invest it in my military and diplomatic defenses (I constantly run deep negatives in taxes...so I gotta keep trading!). I actually have a few thousand defensive thieves at the moment and keep my runes locked and loaded. In the past week or so I was hit by 14K+ orc plunderers, more than my entire population. Twice. Across those two raids my runes smoked 650 plunderers, but my defensive thieves were apparently overwhelmed - they did nothing, slack-jawed layabouts that they are - and I had about 20MM in advanced resources stolen. That is a considerable portion of the total wealth I've built. The thief made out like a bandit. Why was I targeted? I believe it was because the thief saw I was 1) small, 2) not openly affiliated with any alliance, and 3) active on the market - the thief could see my goods for sale and thought he'd just mosey in and take them. However, during the second raid I managed to track the thief back to their home with the help of a large contingent of very generous players (thanks guys!). With time-stamped screen shots along the way we have proof beyond a reasonable doubt as to the thief's identity. After consulting with veteran players, I reached out to the thief and his alliance leadership saying that if he admitted to the theft and returned 3x what was stolen, what I felt was reasonable recompense for the 24 hours I had to spend tracking the thief, I'd laugh it off and we'd be done. My intent was to give the resources received as "punitive" damages to those that helped me along the way, as they gave a fair amount of their own time and energy to this stranger's cause. The thief didn't respond, but his alliance leader did, acknowledging the theft and saying he'd return what was stolen and that I should feel lucky to get that back. Given the circumstances, that struck me as being considerably...less than charitable. However, I thought maybe I was thinking about things differently than most others might and therefore put together this poll. This poll and the associated comments has confirmed to me that my thinking is generally in line with the community. Now, I believe I received that borderline-hostile response from the alliance leadership for the same reason I was thieved - because I am perceived as weak. (I hesitate to consider the other option, that the alliance leadership supports their members thieving active players and this is their way of mitigating losses from being caught.) However, there are a number of alliance heads that have heard my story, many from those that helped track the thief, and I've gotten offers of help to seek redress from no fewer than 6 alliances now (that number seems to grow each day). Apparently some of those alliances that talk about defending the weak on their profile are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is! I have hesitated to make the identity of the thief (and his alliance) public because frankly given the fact that he preys on players 1/5 his size I imagine it would be highly embarrassing for him (and for the alliance who saw fit to give him a medal). And, of course, I still have hope that my request for 3x recompense will be heeded. However, that hope is fading...and it might just be that this gets turned over to those that are looking for an excuse for some "good, clean Illy fun". I hear every day how there's lots of big armies with bored generals out there just itching for a bad guy to take down or a just war to fight...they may get their wish. And here we are...it will be interesting to see what happen's next....