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Akita 
New Poster
Chief Economist
Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 133 |
 Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 05:46 |
Are you sure you are applying the appropriate methodology for testing this ? I have never inquired about the exact mechanics of battle (actual bonuses, damages dealt, hitpoints and numbers of casualties resulting), so I am by no means saying this with any "staff" authority, but merely from the perspective of a regular player (so I might be completely wrong).
I have at least on one occasion noticed something that appeared at least a bit strange : a group of high-heroism commanders (no vitality upgrade) with just one regular troop so you can send an army out (raw attack power of a couple hundred commander-type troops) could end up in the death of everything even if the enemy is a wimpy group of low-grade NPC animals, while adding just a few more regular units (which would not noticeably alter the total attack power) will result in just some casualties and army survival.
One could conclude that the formula calculating casualties is a bit more complicate than straightforward army attack vs army defense in percentages, and hitpoints might also matter. Then, there's the matter of how many hitpoints do regular troops have (if any, and if it differs from troop to troop). And of course, could always expect to also see some randomness involved, which might throw off reverse-engineering attempts even further.
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fluffy
Forum Warrior
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 335 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 06:19 |
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wouldn't the easiest way to see about defensive terrain bonuses be to attack and defend with the same type and number of troops? like 100 spears vs 100 spears? I don't know if that would help though
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KillerPoodle
Postmaster General
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1853 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 06:21 |
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There was a change a few months back such that high leveled commanders only had as much attack strength as the sum of the attack strength of the troops in the army regardless of their heroism level.
E.g. for a fully leveled knight commander you need 60+ knights in the army to get the commanders full attack strength.
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Mandarins31
Forum Warrior
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 418 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 07:13 |
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To fluffy:
we cant find the %age of bonus by sending 2 armies of the same type because they will be affected by the same bonus. and much, if the 2 armies have different powers (like in 100 spears vs 100 spears), there is the problem that the bigger the army is, the les casualties it suffers (if an army have a power of 100 and the other a power of 200, to make it simple, the army with 200 power wont lose 100 but less than 100 power).
But if we do a battle with the same type of units and the same strenght, we could know if a same unit has the same bonus to its attack and to its defence on this square...
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Akita
New Poster
Chief Economist
Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 133 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 10:18 |
 KillerPoodle wrote:
There was a change a few months back such that high leveled commanders only had as much attack strength as the sum of the attack strength of the troops in the army regardless of their heroism level |
Ah, nevermind then, that fully explains it.
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Shrapnel
Wordsmith
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 180 |
Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 01:56 |
Zangi and I repeated the same experiment to see if there was a random element. We did it exactly the same way and got exactly the same results. This leads me to believe the spearmen did get a minor penalty and that the results are not random.
| Sent By: |
System |
| Received By: |
Grog |
| Sent: |
31AUG10 00:15 |
| Subject: |
Failed defense by Grog's forces at Square -41|-199 under attack by Zangi's forces from New Nydus |
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| Two opposing forces clash against each other. Cavalry comes into its own when able to strike hostile forces at will, and from unexpected directions - and nowhere is this more feasible than on open plains. Lightly armoured spear units, however, prefer terrain where there's some cover available. Fighting defensively on open plains, cavalry draws strength from the ability to form and reform their lines of engagement depending on the direction of battle, and it is here where cavalry excels.
| Attackers: |
Unit: |
Quantity: |
Casualties: |
Survivors: |
| Commander: Axing |
Axman |
1 |
Damaged for 84, 16 health remains. |
| Troops: |
Axmen |
39 |
32 |
7 |
| Defenders: |
Unit: |
Quantity: |
Casualties: |
Survivors: |
| Commander: Lamb2 |
Kobold Cohort |
1 |
Damaged for 100, 0 health remains. |
| Troops: |
Kobold Cohorts |
89 |
89 |
0 |
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KarL Aegis
Forum Warrior
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 287 |
Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 01:41 |
Mandarins31 wrote:
To fluffy:
we cant find the %age of bonus by sending 2 armies of the same type because they will be affected by the same bonus. and much, if the 2 armies have different powers (like in 100 spears vs 100 spears), there is the problem that the bigger the army is, the les casualties it suffers (if an army have a power of 100 and the other a power of 200, to make it simple, the army with 200 power wont lose 100 but less than 100 power).
But if we do a battle with the same type of units and the same strenght, we could know if a same unit has the same bonus to its attack and to its defence on this square...
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Maybe they don't have the same bonuses at all. It does say on hills the height advantage of the defender's archers gives them an advantage. We could attempt to find the bonus vs. specific unit types in attack and defense, and compare results .
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I am not amused.
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xilla
New Poster
Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 36 |
Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 09:23 |
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As others have stated, I don't think its wise to rule out the attack vs same unit type, but in the same manner as above, calculating att and def values for an even battle. It may very well be the case that troops have the same bonus/penalty in both attack and defence roles, but it's best to rule out all assumptions, especially if you're testing a system that doesn't create that definition.
Assuming different att and def bonuses for same troop type, there are 8 variables per tile type, giving 16 ratios that are the only thing calculable from this research. Would still give you the end result, what's better where. How would you narrow down the actual figure though?
16 ratios, 3 battles per ratio per tile for a good test, *currently* 35 different terrain types = 1680 test battles. Good luck :P
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Mandarins31
Forum Warrior
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 418 |
Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 17:31 |
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There are only 4 terrain type. Mountains, Hills, Forests and Plains.
I don(t think that Lonely peaks, for exemple, gives more Def bonus to Archers than Treacherous Mountains.
But yes finally we dont know, and we may be careful of that.
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Thexion
Forum Warrior
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 258 |
Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 20:10 |
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I think I heard Stormcrow say that there is difference between hills, small hills and so on also with forest and mountains you can read from descriptions that there is already differences. And don't forget city squares under ruined towers ;)
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Terrain testing results