Play Now Login Create Account
illyriad
   New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Study on t3 viability
   FAQ FAQ   Forum Search    Register Register   Login Login

Topic ClosedStudy on t3 viability
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
   Topic Search Topic Search   Topic Options Topic Options
Darkwords View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 23 May 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 11:50
Originally posted by Brandmeister Brandmeister wrote:

Originally posted by Meagh Meagh wrote:

Maybe the math is different for elven units.. which are op anyways (you guys get the fastest units and the only units that require no armour.. wtf is that about?)

Actually, orc kobold cohorts cost a beer n' a spear. Dwarves get ripped off on the whole "a beer replaces an item" build thing, because stalwarts still take 2 swords, 1 chain & 1 plate, PLUS a beer.


LOL if you think thats a rip off then consider T2 Human cav.

Its seems the issue here is discontent with the weighted mechanics for attack rather than the effects of T3 equipment, however I would be interested to see the stats for an equiped elite troop of T2 spears (lead by a T1 comm with full unit and personnal cav defence) in defence vs. an elite group of attacking T2 cav (lead by a T2 cav comm with full attacking stats).
Back to Top
Deranzin View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 11:57
Originally posted by Darkwords Darkwords wrote:



LOL if you think thats a rip off then consider T2 Human cav.

Why are they a ripoff .?. 
Back to Top
Darkwords View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 23 May 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 12:29
Same issue, they cost a beer more than they do for other races, but are meant to be the specialist troop.
Back to Top
Deranzin View Drop Down
Postmaster
Postmaster
Avatar

Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 845 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 12:33
Originally posted by Darkwords Darkwords wrote:

Same issue, they cost a beer more than they do for other races, but are meant to be the specialist troop.

True, but Elven cavalry are equally expensive due to the price difference between the plate and chain armor ...  Smile   
Back to Top
Darkwords View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 23 May 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 13:20
If you only go by market price perhaps in certain markets this is possible, although I find that in centrum the price of beer exceeds that diffference.

Also the opportunity cost (or rather savings) of not needing a forge in their cities makes elven T2 cav far more economical.  But then, they are not as hard hitting as their human counterparts.
Back to Top
Elmindra View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 464 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 13:34
I think the biggest key between T1 and T2 is training time.  While T1 is just a tad worse than T2 per gold upkeep, T2 troops can be produced almost as fast as T1.  I will take T2 over T1 any day when I can field an army almost twice as powerful in the same amount of time.
Back to Top
Darkwords View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 23 May 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 13:41
I just had a quick look regarding using spears for deffence in this model.

It seems even with T2 human spears the starting defence value of a full elite unit would be 5800 before any bonuses, or commander defence value were applied.

I therefore expect that if the best elite defensive squad was used in this example, rather than the worst possible one, then they would fair rather better against the best possible elite attack squad.
Back to Top
Darkwords View Drop Down
Postmaster General
Postmaster General
Avatar

Joined: 23 May 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 14:10
With all this in mind, I think it could be quite a good idea to have a tourney in which we could only use elite squads and where only 1 single division army is allowed to occupy a square at any one time.
Back to Top
Miltiad View Drop Down
New Poster
New Poster
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Location: Illyriad
Status: Offline
Points: 10 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 15:48
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

Originally posted by Elmindra Elmindra wrote:

The bonuses are multiplicative.

So your spears have 30 base def x 1.10 commander x 1.8 equip x 2.15 wall x .7 terrain bonus = 89.4. Elite equipped spears can achieve a 1:1 ratio vs t2 cav on plains behind a lvl 20 wall with this config.

Where have you seen bonuses are multiplicative?  

I mean they could be i really don't know.  But last i hard anyone doing any testing on equipment the equipment showed even less than the 'advertised' percent bonus.  

On top of that lets not forget the insane cost of just a few equipment compared to a few soldiers.  

Actually equipment bonus is applied first than other bonuses are added together (wall, commander, terrain, biome) prestige bonus is also multiplied. 

For human t2 spear in elite division on plains behind lvl 20 wall this means they can kill a lot more than 1 knight:

Equipment:
+16% pike
+24% reinforced leather
----------------------------------
40% equipment bonus for defense against cavalry, 80% bonus in elite division
I don't know if human battlebred horses can be used with spearmen since I have no such horses otherwise + 20% defense (+40% in elite division)

Pikemen base defense against cavalry 29.

Defense after all the bonuses: 29*(1.8 (elite equipment))*
(1+(1.15(wall)-0.3(plains)+0.15(commander)= 104.4 defense

Knight on plains + 15% commander bonus has: 65*1.45 (30%plains+15% commander) = 94,25

Human t2 spearman can kill 1.11 knight behind lvl 20 wall on plains and equipped like he should be. 
Of course you can make 5 elite divisions from a single city and even if you don't have commanders trained in cavalry defense (-15%) such equiped pikes kill more than 1 attacking knight...

Orcs can have their t2 spearmen have 118,4 defense against cavalry and each can kill 1,26 knights.

I have this results confirmed in practice and I assumed 15% charge bonus... 

With right equipment even defending knight kills more attacking knights behind level 20 wall on plains... Not to mention that if 5 knight commanders have lvl 10 avoid charge they more than nullify attacking knights heroism...

All the equipment stays in a city after the combat... So if anyone is still complaining that cities on plains are not worth defending, they should play a bit simpler game like farmville...

edit: orc results


Edited by Miltiad - 28 Feb 2013 at 16:16
Back to Top
Elmindra View Drop Down
Forum Warrior
Forum Warrior
Avatar

Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 464 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 16:24
I need to do some forum spelunking to find the thread in which this model was confirmed via GM.

And after some spelunking (got lost for a few) I have indeed found the GM confirmation.  It is as described above by Militidad, all old bonuses are additive and the multiplied by the new equip and elite bonuses.

The battlebred cannot be used by troops other than cavalry.  But now we can look at what is the best anti cav elite unit.

Taking humans, a spearman can get 104.4 def per with 200 per division for a total of 20880 def per division.  A T1 cavalry can get 124.5 def per with 60 per division for a total of 7470 def per division.  A T2 cavalry can get 136.5 def per with 60 per division for a total of 8192 def per division.  Not even close there, even with cavalry bonus to plains.  


Edited by Elmindra - 28 Feb 2013 at 16:44
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.