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Albatross View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Outposts
    Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 14:00
Here's a half-baked idea that might satisfy those (including me) who have pondered the idea of Outposts. I write this with the caveat that I have not crunched the numbers to make sure it is balanced, but I believe it can be fine-tuned...

Outposts are a lower class of city, with these limitations:
  • Buildings can only reach level 10;
  • There are only 12 free building plots.
  • You only get 50% of resource plots that are available to a city, for a given tile;
  • No sovereign claims;
  • No defensive wall;
  • You cannot use Exodus to move an outpost.
And these benefits/differences:
  • Many different players may put an Outpost on a tile (just like armies, respecting the same diplomacy stances), but only one outpost per player is allowed on a tile. Further, players do not see, share, nor control anything belonging to other players who occupy the same tile;
  • Unlike cities, there are no hard limits on the number of Outposts a player has, but to place a soft limit on the number, Outposts use the city Settlers build queue (see below).

Settling

Settlers will be able to embark on two types of mission:
  • Settle Town (as we currently have), and
  • a new option, Settle Outpost.
The number of settlers required will increase with the number of (Towns + Outposts), so it will eventually become infeasible  to have too many Outposts. It also becomes more difficult to settle new towns if you have Outposts, and vice versa.

Note that we might need other limits, to present economic, as well as time interval limitations on the creation of Outposts.

Conversion of Outposts into Towns?

Yes, but only with the following:
  • You need to be the only player with an Outpost on the tile,
  • You need to send a 'Settle Town' mission to the square, so the existing Outpost is effectively just a placeholder until the town settlers arrive. The Outpost's units are preserved, and outpost buildings are converted into buildings for the city, to an upper limit of Level 8 (two levels below the outpost limit).

What use is an Outpost?

Same as a city, but much less capable. You could create small armies, diplomatic missions, gathering activities, trade valuable items, and manufacture advanced resources — all within the limits afforded by the level cap on buildings.

Defence

That would be difficult. There are no defensive walls, and if many players stack their armies  on a tile  (home-grown at the outpost, or reinforced from a town), they are vulnerable to a single large attack. Think how difficult it is to defend tournament squares.

Would you regard someone wiping your outpost to be a serious war-provoking act, or would you regard outpost battles to be  low-stakes, isolated, and  acceptable?

So, is it worth it?

With the limitations on existing game mechanics, this allow more varied interactions, while remaining balanced and making better use of the other game assets. I would find it Interesting™. Would you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 14:15
So, that level 10 building limit is very limiting. That's intentional. I don't want these being used as full-fledged cities, but instead as specialised outposts with limited capability.

I'm even thinking that 12 free building plots is generous. Perhaps even 8 free building plots is sensible, along with an expensive building that increases your level limit by 1 (while of course using up a building plot!). This gives you 8 buildings at level 10, or 7  buildings   at level 11, ... or 4  buildings   at Level 14, and so on.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 15:10
Very interesting idea.  But I would put a hard limit, not soft, on the number of outposts.  Your soft limit, if I understand correctly, relies on the inconvenience of a player having too many outposts to show easily on the screen.  IMO that is a recipe for player dissatisfaction as players try to maximize their power while minimizing their enjoyment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 15:22
Originally posted by Lagavulin Lagavulin wrote:

Your soft limit, if I understand correctly, relies on the inconvenience of a player having too many outposts to show easily on the screen.
By soft limit, I mean that it costs too much to maintain or create a high number, e.g. has anyone managed to use 20 traders?

Sure, assembling 11, 12, 13, 14... settlers per outpost might be a little limiting, but I don't think it's limiting enough. I'd want something that, say, makes it difficult to casually run more than 10 outposts plus 10 cities without specialisation, and impossible to run more than 16 outposts plus 10 cities.

I'm not sure what would provide the maintenance costs. Perhaps a running cost of 2-gold penalty per head of outpost population, applied to the town that sent the mission?
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Rill View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 18:39
Personally I think this fails the "fun" test.  Are there really a lot of players who have 10 cities who are saying "gee I wish I could have some more cities to click through"?

It seems likely that people would use these "outposts" mainly for the purposes of crafting -- if crafting is possible in an outpost?  How do outposts get research done? -- and gathering.  Someone would create an outpost (or 10) with zillions of cotters and harass their neighbors for miles around.

Maybe this sounds fun to some people, but to me it mostly sounds tiresome.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 18:57
I agree with Rill, there is not much difference between this form of outpost and another city.  In fact I can make this type of tiny-city by just not fully building up one of my own cities.  

With broken lands I can have 20 cities, why would I want an additional 20 half-cities?  If we wanted to go that route I would say just make the new maximum number of cities 15 per continent.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 20:59
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Personally I think this fails the "fun" test.
...
Maybe this sounds fun to some people, but to me it mostly sounds tiresome.
Good point. I was hoping to hit the sweet spot, where something small could be set up in a place that wasn't practical for a fully-fledged town, with the hope of enabling different gameplay.

I think there is fun to be had, but if it is outweighed by the inconvenience of mindless clicking, then on balance it wouldn't work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 21:00
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

In fact I can make this type of tiny-city by just not fully building up one of my own cities.
This would only work a couple of times; after that you'd need existing cities to be big in order to reach the population requirement for further cities.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 22:26
If that was your goal then raising the 10 city limit would be the same thing.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2013 at 01:47
Originally posted by DeathDealer89 DeathDealer89 wrote:

If that was your goal then raising the 10 city limit would be the same thing.  
Not really; the intention was really to give players the capability to operate in a very limited way at other locations.

If we're concerned that Outposts look too much like proper cities, then the level limit could be lowered further (implying fewer researchable technologies and fewer available building types).

I realise this might be a long edit, but it might help to illustrate what Outposts could do.

C hanging the figures from the OP, an outpost city might have:
  • 2 wood, 2 clay, 2 iron, 1 stone, 3 food plots - all starting at level 0 (if the tile itself has 5w, 5c, 5i, 3s, 7f on the map)
  • No reserved Paddock, no reserved Common Ground,
  • 6 empty plots, which may be built to level 6.
A new research is available, Outpost Architect, which raises the building level limit by 1 for each Outpost Architect building (which is very expensive to build, with maintenance cost making 5 difficult to sustain with 3 food plots maxed out).

So, you could have:
  • 6 free plots for (non-architect) buildings with a build level limit of 6
  • 5 free plots for (non-architect) buildings with a build level limit of 7
  • 4 free plots for (non-architect) buildings with a build level limit of 8
  • 3 free plots for (non-architect) buildings with a build level limit of 9
  • 2 free plots for (non-architect) buildings with a build level limit of 10
  • 1 free plot for (non-architect) buildings with a build level limit of 11
You'll notice that:
  • Carpentry, Kiln, Forge, Stonemason, Flourmill, etc., require a L7 basic resource plot, so you would need one Outpost Architect building to bring your 'build level limit' up to 7. These advanced buildings would give limited returns anyway (+12% – +22% on 2–3 basic plots).
  • Sovereignty needs a L15 Storehouse (then Inventory Management Research, a Warehouse) to unlock the Sovereignty technologies, so is not attainable in an outpost. If we really wanted it, we'd need to start with more empty plots, or higher initial build limit (which would become too useful and more city-like).
  • Marketplace L6 limits you to 10 caravans, 300 capacity each, at 26 sq/h speed.
    Marketplace L11 limits you to 20 caravans, 600 capacity each, at 31 sq/h speed.
  • Storehouse L6 only has capacity for 2,784 of each resource; L9 has 6,117. You'd likely not want more because you'd have only 2 free plots if you had 3 Outpost Architect buildings and a L9 Storehouse. With these low storage levels, it would be difficult to maintain an overstretched outpost.
  • Trading and gathering are possible, but limited, by level, to a few units.
  • Creating Advanced resources is limited, e.g. you cannot attain Forging, but you can have a Chain Armourer and Swordsmith.
  • Diplomacy
    • T1 thieves with 3 Outpost Architects and a Consulate, leaving 2 free plots, or
    • T2 thieves with 5 Outpost Architects and a Consulate (no other free plots!),
    • No Sabotage, no Assassination.
    • Spies and Scouts are easy. You can even build Watchers' Repose (1 free plot) and Lookouts' Rest. (max 4 free plots)
  • Militarily
    • Unit creation would be very slow with Barracks L6, but a bit quicker at say L9 or L10.
    • You can't blockade nor siege from an Outpost, nor can you evade blockades with vans leaving an Outpost.
    • Reinforcement and Sally Forth need L7 Barracks (leaving 4 other free plots).
    • Basic T1 Cavalry is only just possible: 5 Outpost Architects, Barracks L11 (no other free plots). You can have T2 pike units at L7, T2 bow units at L8, but only basic T1 sword units.
    • Military Outfitter is only just possible: 4 Outpost Architects, Barracks, and L10 Storehouse (no other plots are free). You can't outfit cavalry though.
    • You can research and build for Biome Warfare: 2 Outpost Architects, Barracks, and a dedicated Biome Warfare College building, leaving other 2 plots free.
    • You are allowed Elite Formations.
    • You are allowed only two commanders (Barracks L5), or three commanders (Barracks L10, which limits you to just Barracks and one other building).
  • Magic
    • Up to three schools of magic can be unlocked.
    • Most second-tier blights are possible
    • All second-tier geomantic spells are possible, as is the third-tier Nature's Earth.
    • Second-tier runes are easy, with some third-tier being possible.
  • Almost all crafting is available.
I realise this is excessively detailed, but I think I had to illustrate exactly how limited an Outpost would be, and what degree of specialisation is necessary to be effective.

Lastly, Outpost populations can't count towards the population count required for settling the next city.

Edit: Added Magic and crafting.


Edited by Albatross - 13 Jun 2013 at 02:21
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