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N. Chadgod 
Greenhorn
Joined: 30 May 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 69 |
 Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 02:39 |
 hellion19 wrote:
Hora wrote:
ES2 wrote:
Just because I called out the propaganda does not mean I am reading words and randomly getting "propaganda". I am yet to see a reason of war against Harmless post from any Consone member without use of propaganda, though I understand how important it is to win the PR war as much as the real war. |
Ehm... OK, I'll try without any PR talk... thus, just facts as I see them (biased as I am)
1. H? has seen Consone as a competitor from day one. Only understandable, as we have same size.
2. ABSA and RHY had an argument on a mine. Unkind words were exchanged. RHY sent sieges on ABSA.
3. Consone saw those sieges, decided sieges to be out of any proportion in a discussion about a trout mine, decided to break sieges while trying to solve this conflict diplomatically.
4. H? declared war on VIC, claiming, that attacking those siege camps was an act of bullying, aggressive, and such...
5. Mutual defense triggered. Consone alliances not hit by H?'s war declarations either decided to stay neutral like FF, or to defend VIC, stating this by declaring war themselfs.
In my opinion, this declaration of Dwarfen Druids against H? falls under "Mutual defense", and not under "Warmongering". Mutual defense was stated from the very beginning of Consone, and any alliance attacking, would have had to expect this protocoll to take effect.
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3 is where the problems started as did the actual escalation. Prior to 3 it was being dealt with between the parties involved in said disputes as most disputes should be. At the time ABSA and SkB were already bigger than RHY numbers wise. They were not likely considered large enough to be bullying RHY however and it was possible for either side to win it.
Involving the rest of Consone in a dispute to save the already larger side in a war is a bit much. Regardless of stated intention it became a war of RHY vs Absa / SkB / Consone.
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I see the problems starting @ 2. How is breaking a siege more aggressive than the siege itself?
Edited by N. Chadgod - 18 Oct 2012 at 02:40
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It's beyond fairytale, it's inconceivable!
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Sisren
Forum Warrior
Joined: 03 Feb 2012
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 446 |
Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 02:42 |
N. Chadgod wrote:
hellion19 wrote:
Hora wrote:
ES2 wrote:
Just because I called out the propaganda does not mean I am reading words and randomly getting "propaganda". I am yet to see a reason of war against Harmless post from any Consone member without use of propaganda, though I understand how important it is to win the PR war as much as the real war. |
Ehm... OK, I'll try without any PR talk... thus, just facts as I see them (biased as I am)
1. H? has seen Consone as a competitor from day one. Only understandable, as we have same size.
2. ABSA and RHY had an argument on a mine. Unkind words were exchanged. RHY sent sieges on ABSA.
3. Consone saw those sieges, decided sieges to be out of any proportion in a discussion about a trout mine, decided to break sieges while trying to solve this conflict diplomatically.
4. H? declared war on VIC, claiming, that attacking those siege camps was an act of bullying, aggressive, and such...
5. Mutual defense triggered. Consone alliances not hit by H?'s war declarations either decided to stay neutral like FF, or to defend VIC, stating this by declaring war themselfs.
In my opinion, this declaration of Dwarfen Druids against H? falls under "Mutual defense", and not under "Warmongering". Mutual defense was stated from the very beginning of Consone, and any alliance attacking, would have had to expect this protocoll to take effect.
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3 is where the problems started as did the actual escalation. Prior to 3 it was being dealt with between the parties involved in said disputes as most disputes should be. At the time ABSA and SkB were already bigger than RHY numbers wise. They were not likely considered large enough to be bullying RHY however and it was possible for either side to win it.
Involving the rest of Consone in a dispute to save the already larger side in a war is a bit much. Regardless of stated intention it became a war of RHY vs Absa / SkB / Consone.
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I see the problems starting @ 2. How is breaking a siege more aggressive than the siege itself? |
The issue with #2 isn't ABSA, it was SkB. SkB requested ABSA to attack RHY.
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DeathDealer89
Postmaster
Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 944 |
Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 03:36 |
Well you kinda skipped over ABSA attacking RHY and then taunting and insulting them. There was no attempt at diplomatic solution by consone no matter how many times you say it. In fact RHY were the most diplomatic alliance involved.
RHY and SKB agreed on a diplomatic solution.
Behind the scenes SKB was aggressive and asked ABSA to attack RHY.
ABSA attacked RHY.
RHY attempted diplomacy and asked for repayment for lost troops.
ABSA refused insulted, taunted and demeaned RHY
RHY responded with military offensive (The only next logical step when the other side chooses to ignore diplomacy)
VIC also ignores diplomacy and attacks RHY's sieges (While it can be argued that was in defense of an ally still no diplomacy involved here)
H? supports RHY
VIC and consone ask for sieges to be recalled (This is actually the first attempt on Consone side to maybe kinda be diplomacy)
Consone piles on and declares war (Btw consone declared war many more times than H?/Rhy)
A few people jump into the war on both sides because hey why not.
Sages (this is my fav) makes a post about recruiting because well they are tiny and can't fight on their own.
The war rages on, and although I haven't read all 10 threads and 10 pages in each to see if anyone offered anything in terms of peace. I doubt there will be any within the tourney timeframe.
Oh and while Consone, H? and everybody else were busy fighting. Crows and soon took the opportunity to just own at the tourney. Grats to them :D And i must admit while i thought Soon was impressive rate of increase Crows really took it to the bank.
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N. Chadgod
Greenhorn
Joined: 30 May 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 69 |
Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 04:27 |
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Oh, the tournaments over?
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It's beyond fairytale, it's inconceivable!
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Buridan
New Poster
Joined: 02 Feb 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 34 |
Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 06:07 |
Sisren wrote:
The issue with #2 isn't ABSA, it was SkB. SkB requested ABSA to attack RHY. |
I'm sorry, but that is entirely speculation on your part.
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hellion19
Forum Warrior
Joined: 01 Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 310 |
Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 06:18 |
N. Chadgod wrote:
I see the problems starting @ 2. How is breaking a siege more aggressive than the siege itself?
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This would be true if it were only the people involved. Getting a huge alliance involved in the matter could easily be seen as far more aggressive regardless.
Lets go with another example not related to this war as it seems the propaganda attached to this one is quite a bit. Lets use the NC and STEEL war as an example. The 2 had a dispute whatever that may be and who was right or wrong means little in the matter. They decided to fight it out because of a breakdown in diplo talks to end it peacefully early on so therefore it escalated. Which is fine and good as it happens sometimes.
Lets say now that NC decided to call in a bigger alliance as an example lets just say the entire Crowlition to correct the wrong that they perceived STEEL did to them. This is where the main issue is... which is the same as this war.
Letting the two sides come to their own terms would of been far better than interfering with a dispute between the two. Unless Consone wants to also dictate the actions of all their guilds it is not going to be ideal to also back everyone in their coalition without a little extra care in their decision making. Most of the argument that happens doesn't argue that RHY was the initial instigator in the war but rather people argued they haven't followed an agreement in the time frame that SkB wanted and therefore called in ABSA. Which ABSA drew first blood and after that cryed foul when they get hit back and managed to pull all of consone into the mix.
Lots of over reaction on Consone part which led to other groups interfering. It could of simply been a similar situation to other wars where they conduct their own war and be on their way after. If H? didn't support RHY in this I would of questioned our friendship and I am glad to see H? step in and assist where someone was clearly being bullied by a far greater sized alliance.
So yes the escalation started at 3. Until then it was a war between 3 guilds of relatively equal sides dealing with their difference in opinions. Sieges are sometimes a part of a war... whether you like it or not.
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N. Chadgod
Greenhorn
Joined: 30 May 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 69 |
Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 11:52 |
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Yeah, I dont buy any of that. If youre admitting a siege is an act of war then defending yourself cant be worse.
Edited by N. Chadgod - 18 Oct 2012 at 11:53
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It's beyond fairytale, it's inconceivable!
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Rorgash
Postmaster
Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 894 |
Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 12:04 |
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i think people are forgetting that this started with Skb and not absa. but i dont care, the war is going and im happy :)
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hellion19
Forum Warrior
Joined: 01 Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 310 |
Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 12:16 |
N. Chadgod wrote:
Yeah, I dont buy any of that. If youre admitting a siege is an act of war then defending yourself cant be worse. |
More so the argument was that having others joining a war between SkB + ABSA vs RHY escalated the situation. Up to that point it would of simply been just another small war between the 3 of roughly equal sized sides. Calling in someone that is nearly larger than all 3 combined caused the mess that your in currently. Which I explained a little better in my previous post...
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Sisren
Forum Warrior
Joined: 03 Feb 2012
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 446 |
Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 14:46 |
Buridan wrote:
Sisren wrote:
The issue with #2 isn't ABSA, it was SkB. SkB requested ABSA to attack RHY. |
I'm sorry, but that is entirely speculation on your part.
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Really? It's the presented position stated many times and rather clearly in other posts...
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