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Topic ClosedNC crusade vs. STEEL

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(EOM) Harry View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 16:30
Right guys, i'm going to say something really controversial here and it most likely will flag up a lot of hate toward nCrow. Lets just keep the hate (if any) directed at me and not the alliance.

I personally (amongst others) would love to break the sieges inbound on GIM, he is a great friend of mine here and a former member, nCrow also have a "no siege in our backyard" policy where those sieges we deem unnecessary and arbitrary, we break. (Point of reference: any breaking of sieges by nCrow as a sole act will never be a declaration of war!) 

Unfortunately, it has come to the point in illyriad where any action as such by nCrow (mostly due to our size and the crow confederacy) we will be deemed as aggressive and "warmongering" and will promptly be scolded by the community for some reason or another. This leaves me frustrated as i have to watch as GIM is attacked by NC and will thus suffer damage at the hands of something which i believe to be unjust. 

Please don't excuse this as words and cowardice. I as well as much of nCrow are just fed up with trying to help out friends or give support to an alliance and then time and time again battered down by words and falsities. If i'm honest guys we really have to get a grip of this. 

We cannot just have a common law ruling on each individual case and point. In my mind there needs to be clear rules of combat and justifications for war (maybe even set in statutes) so that not only do alliances know how the community will act (even though opinions may disagree it may not overwhelmingly stop the war) whilst also allowing an alliance/alliances to check the "war constitution" to digress whether they are in the right to declare war/support a player/alliance and to what extent. 

Thanks guys!
Harry
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Edited by (EOM) Harry - 12 Sep 2012 at 16:30
Fool's watch the land when the problem is in the heart.
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G0DsDestroyer View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 17:18
Originally posted by abstractdream abstractdream wrote:


... perhaps bringing your friends in from the beginning things would have ended better for you...

Uh..yeah, of course it would, and we didn't want to gang up on you, and kill you all, which has been said by me already no need to say this other than to remind you. Seems this comment is telling me that you would want a bigger alliance to gang up with a bunch of larger ones to kill a small one, to be smart. 

lolololololololol

Originally posted by (EOM) Harry (EOM) Harry wrote:

We cannot just have a common law ruling on each individual case and point. In my mind there needs to be clear rules of combat and justifications for war (maybe even set in statutes) so that not only do alliances know how the community will act (even though opinions may disagree it may not overwhelmingly stop the war) whilst also allowing an alliance/alliances to check the "war constitution" to digress whether they are in the right to declare war/support a player/alliance and to what extent. 
Come now Harry, war is messy and rules are not binding in war, anything can happen and will happen, no matter what people think.
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(EOM) Harry View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 17:25
I know Gods it was just an example/idea. I just feel that we need some more outlines rather than "Hey, you're not allowed to help player x thats mean on alliance y"

And you've expressed my feelings of hypocrisy and swaying agendas in your earlier quote reference :D
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Taron View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 17:41

Abstractdream, When TLR changed their alliance page saying that they have “Struck fear into the hearts of her enemies.” The spy that infiltrated Aesir and got the wide message to Aesir members must not be able to read, for we decided to continue our fight until we were wiped off the map (As G0dsDestroyer stated earlier in a different post…..). So we really didn’t fear TLR in that war, we knew we could die when they called for friends, yet we stood our ground. Saying they ‘struck’ fear in us is kind of insulting if you consider it a draw anyways. That’s like saying TLR Stood its ground when every alliance that joined backed out, leaving TLR alone, I was suddenly getting a message about peace….

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Taron View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 17:41

(EOM) Harry I understand exactly what you are saying which is why in the previous forum i thought sense the community stated in assorts that Aesir somehow became a police of Illyriad, and the post I made stating that if an aggressive action is done without MY knowledge that they therefore have to be criticized, falsified and threaten to be destroyed. Sense their actions were not told to ME, I am doing what I said. There are talkers and doers in the world RL and Illyriad. I do what I say, as everyone is seeing. Majority of Illyriad are just talkers, like when H? Took out the two alliances, all there was was talk, did anyone do anything? Let me see..... They Talked.... I have nothing against H?, they did what they want and they got what they wanted. I respect them because they made a choice and went with it. Power to them.

 As I see there is no Illyriad wide law (like worldwide but Illy ways) about war. There is No UN in Illyriad, no branch of justice, there is nothing. Yet during the Aesir vs TLR war (not a crusade, there was no religion or defense/advancement of an idea behind it, unless you count wanting A person to be punished) had been criticized, falsified and threaten to be destroyed because we did not announce why we went to war to the ENTIRE world of Illyriad so sense I was not informed then this forum had to be made.

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Myr View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 18:50
Originally posted by Taron Taron wrote:

 As I see there is no Illyriad wide law (like worldwide but Illy ways) about war. There is No UN in Illyriad, no branch of justice, there is nothing. Yet during the Aesir vs TLR war (not a crusade, there was no religion or defense/advancement of an idea behind it, unless you count wanting A person to be punished) had been criticized, falsified and threaten to be destroyed because we did not announce why we went to war to the ENTIRE world of Illyriad so sense I was not informed then this forum had to be made.

 
 
Just to clarify, in Aesir vs. TLR I personally chose to join in mainly because a member of Aesir sent a letter to members of TLR informing them that if they stayed in the alliance they would be wiped out along with the alliance. Later, after I became involved, Aesir claimed that the person who sent that statement worked on their own, but by the time they made that clarification it didn't seem genuine, just a reaction to public outcry. I have never before gotten militarily involved in a TLR conflict and they have had quite a few, but that statement threatening to wipe out an entire alliance certainly got my attention.
 
 
 
Had it been an alliance other than TLR my reaction would have been exactly the same.
 
Edited to put in spaces, I hoped it worked.


Edited by Myr - 12 Sep 2012 at 19:16
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Daufer View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 19:30
It always pays to have powerful friends, but I would have to say that nCrow jumping into a fight that apparently even Gimardoran doesn't take too seriously on account of friendship between two people would be rather high-handed and arbitrary.  Has Gimardoran actually asked for aid?  If so then by all means, assist him, but be honest about it.  If he hasn't requested outside help then one would presume he is either working the situation out diplomatically or he feels that STEEL can handle NC on their own (and good for them), in which case an nCrow officer deciding to squash attacks against Gim would be grossly unfair to the other side.  After all, as an officer of a Crow confederacy you are in a sense untouchable: no one will risk a war with all eight (9,10,11...?) of you if one chooses to intervene. If Gimardoran is in trouble he has many, many confederates to draw on.  Given that a number of ranking members of STEEL are or have been officers in other major alliances and that Gim is a popular figure in global chat with many connections I am sure he will receive plenty of material support quietly behind the scenes... that is how war is waged in Illy.
 
How about this for a policy: if alliance A wants to attack alliance B of approximately equal size they go on the forum and state "We don't like King Blah's attitude/body odor/land claim/etc., and we'll fight until he quits his alliance/loses this city/cedes this mine to us.  We will not attack players under x population unless they send attacks/diplos at us or alliance B attacks our small players.  If King Blah or his alliance leadership want to negotiate other terms they can post here".  If King Blah thinks he needs help, let him call on his confederates openly.  If Alliance A needs help against those confederates let him call on his own for aid.  Everybody else, either join those alliances if you want to join in or keep the hell out of it. This isn't a newb being bullied here.
 
I started this game in Havoc Unleashed, was involved in my first war within a matter of months, and it pretty much involved us getting curbstomped by a smaller alliance with a lot of silent partners feeding them equipment and materials until our guildmaster sent Lorre and AmrothAnguireal IGMs asking them to break the sieges.  That war was essentially a private grudge match between our guild leader and a member he had booted who happened to be the alt of an officer in another alliance.  It seems to me that most of the fighting here in Illy revolves around "we think so&so is a jerk, he meddles in our affairs, he treated us badly" or whatever.  Some people either belong to powerful alliances or have many confederates or just socialize a lot in GC, and end up being above reproach.  Others open their mouth once and are eradicated.
I don't hate on nCrow, I certainly don't hate on Harry (thanks for those weapons you gave me during the KT/havoc war) and I have nothing against Gimardoran, but for crying out loud let people fight if they want!  That is what drives people out of this overgrown chatroom that is Illyriad, the hypocrisy of "this is a sandbox and everyone has the right to play however they want unless I don't like the way you play".
 
TLDR:
 
Harry, if Gim needs the cavalry to come running to the rescue he'll say so.
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geofrey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 19:33
Daufer, great post. 

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Arakamis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 19:39
Show me one word/sentence from that message indicating an annihilation!

Maybe this part ( I guess I can share my message with public ) Smile:
Quote
Leave your alliance now and abondon those who are leading you to nothing but your death. Leave this path that is brought down upon you out of nothing but greed. Otherwise, you will be treated as valid targets and will be targeted accordingly.

There is nothing indicating annihilation here though, only telling them that they may be chosen as valid targets unless they quit their alliance.

Having said that all, kudos to TLR for manipulating the community in such a good way to their cause. They did hell of a good job in that.

We all learned our lessons i guess.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2012 at 19:56
Originally posted by Daufer Daufer wrote:

but for crying out loud let people fight if they want!  That is what drives people out of this overgrown chatroom that is Illyriad...
 
TLDR:
 
Harry, if Gim needs the cavalry to come running to the rescue he'll say so.


I could not agree more!! 
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