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Elmindra View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 02:19
You did not listen to a word I said.  Tell me again how cavalry should be able to kill defenders in a city behind a lvl 20 wall at over a 2:1 cost ratio?  How exactly is massing cavalry and sending them against anything in any terrain strategic?  As it stands now, cavalry are absolutely the best defense for a city.  All you need is cavalry to break sieges.  Defensive units such as archers are best used on offense to defend a siege camp.

Many dwarven players build swords, but they are at a disadvantage compared to cavalry in almost all respects.  I have participated in tournament and have seen all troop types and battle reports in this war.  I have used cavalry to their advantage and use troops in the best way the game allows.  All I am saying, and it seems that most but you agree, that there are some slight imbalances with some of the units with certain terrain types and with cities in particular.  When the best city defense strategy is to keep your troops out of the town and simply attack the siege camp when it comes there is something wrong with the mechanics.  There should actually be a reason to use different troop types more often, and city walls should actually mean something.  There should be a real reason for allies to reinforce the town itself.
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twilights View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 02:59
if camping armies could have a zone of control of surrounding squares the military part of this game would be much more strategy, many pc strategy games have this and it would make this one of the best browser games out there, it wouldnt take much coding to put this into the game
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 03:08
Ummm... isn't that what Sally forth and the final seige battle are for?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I do not see how you feel there is no point in defending cities under seige, the only problem with it is fighting off clearance attacks, which is what I think you are actually arguing for.

However, simply weakening cav and strengthening all other troop types as you have suggested seems pretty naff in my opinion for the reasons I have mentioned above, which I can only guess you have not read, as you keep saying I am wrong, yet agreeing with the opposing points that I have made and trying to fit them into your side of the discussion.

And yes using cav in offense most of the time (and I am sorry but if you throw cav at forests and mountains then you should rework your tactics) is a strategy.  When attacking, use the attack troops, seems a pretty simplistic one but it works.

Basically from what you have written, it seems that you find it unfair that cav are so effective when attacking your cities, despite the fact that you have seen fit to construct all your cities on plains squares ( most likely for the advantage of high food resources) as most people tend to do, however this is not always the best strategy in account building, your city walls would be very effective if your city were on a mountain and full of archers, or on a forest and full of swords.

Despite this, it does nothing to help in breaking seiges, as breaking a seige is an offensive measure and as you say the best troops for that are cav.  This makes perfect sense in my opinion, as why would you send defensive troops to attack a camp outside your city, or how would you city walls help you in that attack?

As Kumo pointed out, your whole argument for weakening cav to aid in city defence, makes no sense when you consider that you need to break seige camps.  What you are actually arguing for would make seiges far more difficult to defend against.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 03:24
Originally posted by gameplayer gameplayer wrote:

if camping armies could have a zone of control of surrounding squares the military part of this game would be much more strategy, many pc strategy games have this and it would make this one of the best browser games out there, it wouldnt take much coding to put this into the game

Um you care to elaborate?  At the current moment 'zone of control' is just that you didn't explain at all if it would do anything to benefit either side in any way.  Other than just saying these troops control that zone, woopdie do. 

Also the multi-wall thing would also allow the T1 siege engines to be more effective in combat.  Which atm they normally tear down the wall of a city with no troops in it to begin with and then just sit there.  


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twilights View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 03:31
for opposing armies to pass through zones they have to defeat the camping army...as how it can be used for strategy just image
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 03:48
Would make hunting npc's rather tricky.  ;)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 09:41
Terrain modifier adjustment seems pretty reasonable.  Yes, on plains cavalry should be 2-3 times more effective than other troop types.  However, given that their base attack is 60-65 and infantry cav defense is only 17-20, odds are that a cavalry attack on infantry entrenched in a forest is still going to inflict 2:1 losses and that is preposterous. 

Ideally, each troop type should be specialized for terrain.  Let cavalry be absolutely dominating on plains and small hills for example, but conversely almost useless in mountains, forests and buildings.  Let Infantry be the master of large hills and forests but helpless in open ground or mountains.  Let archers rule the mountains and buildings, but weak in plains and forests.  Let spearmen be the default, reasonably good everywhere but always weaker than a specialist troop on its preferred ground.  Every unit type should be significantly stronger than the others in choice terrain and significantly weaker in unfavorable terrain.  As it stands now the terrain modifiers are worth taking into account (you might need to send an extra 15-25% troops) but some units are so strong as to be the default choice and some so weak as to be pointless.

Cavalry has always been the primary culprit here.  Yes, cavalry has always been the king of the battlefield -- field being the operative word.  On uneven ground they never have been terribly effective.  The Saxons on Senlac Hill at Hastings turned back countless Norman cavalry charges, and we all know how archers at Agincourt obliterated the French cavalry who charged them across a sea of mud.  The whole point of the pike squares ubiquitous in 17th century warfare was their immunity to cavalry charge.  You don't see much cavalry action in the mountains, and I have never heard of a cavalry army successfully storming a walled city either... horses are lousy climbers.

Cities should also be their own terrain, preferably something like buildings.  Do the defenders all just line up on main street and wait for cavalry to ride them down after opening the gates for them?  A cavalry attack on a walled plains city defended by T2 spearmen is still going to give a better than 1:1 kill ratio and that is totally absurd.  Even the Huns and Mongols had to dismount to fight inside a city.  Historically the only effective way to capture a city was to force a surrender through starvation or to break down the walls with siege engines and then storm with infantry in a house-to-house bloodbath.  In Illyriad it basically boils down to whoever has the most cavalry wins.

 If you are human there is almost no reason to build anything but cavalry: you get a 10% bonus to cav's already bloated attack numbers and you produce them more cheaply than any other race.  Even dwarves, with the worst cavalry and best infantry in the game, are better off building cavalry as often as not.  Unless an opponent is considerate enough to build his siege camp in a forest and protect it with pikemen, I'm better off siccing the mules on them.  For defense almost everyone is better off building archers because they have good all around scores and you can attack with them as well, particularly if you are an elf.  Spearmen are cheaper, but they are lousy on the attack and only good against cavalry, which is so overpowered that it will still wipe out your spear army easily.

TLDR:

As I see it, the heart of the problem is that military effectiveness of many troop types is grossly unrealistic, as is having a walled city carry no special terrain modifier.
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Darkwords View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 10:01
Again, if the advantages of cav were to be removed then so must their exessive production and maintanance cost.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 12:40
with the wealth that this game has in resources and with the value added with the addition of v2 resources and crafted items and also with the addition of unlimited storage of trade hubs the costs of maintaining a huge army of any type is no longer a factor. the main factor in how large of an army a player can have comes down to the amount of time and prestige they are willing to put into the game .....this forum has seen this concern posted several times by  players when they left the game....be prepared for 100k cav armies by the larger long term players, it will become common place to see the how big an army strategy as the game ages....the devs need to come up with a reason to use the troops other than just sitting in castles to see how many u can build...tournaments is a boring answer.....good luck devs
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Elmindra View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 12:45
Get involved in a war and you will shortly see the best tactic for defending a town is to NOT leave your armies there to get wiped out by masses of cavalry.  And yes, you still send cavalry to wipe siege camps in forests and even mountains since they still get better than a 1:1 kill death ratio even in these terrains.  And I am not mad my cities are getting attacked, I actually feel bad for the people who I can wipe their defenders from their town with minimal cavalry losses.

I don't think you need to weaken cavalry themselves, just change the terrain modifiers.  I am even in favor for upping the plains defense modifier for cavalry on plains.  They should be the best offensively AND defensively on the plains (and better on small hills).  

The actual troop numbers are fine, there just needs to be more of an incentive via terrain modifiers to make other troops useful.  Make cities always be classified as buildings, not just during the capture/raze attempt.  Increase the terrain modifiers from 30 to 50% in the extreme cases (both on offense and defense).  Increase the wall bonus from 115% to 215% or higher.  Increase the T1 and T2 spearmen training speed to match their upkeep.
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