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Rill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2015 at 06:05
It might also be interesting to have a faction quest system with some sort of pledge of support from factions given as a result of completing quests.  Once we can influence faction standing that might happen automatically, but it also could be interesting to have something along the lines of "completion of this quest will result in you being able to call on 10k cavalry" (subject to marching time from the hub) or something of the sort.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ptolemy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2015 at 06:51
Originally posted by DanSavin DanSavin wrote:

[EDITED]
Hello my name is DanSavin and I'm from Paradox[Aggro].
tl;dr in the end if you are too lazy to read

Today in GC people were talking about mercenaries and how it may or may not work. So here is my structure version for you to judge.

Why developpers should care.
1. Easy to make.
Mercenaries are just another type of units for hire (just like spearmen, bowmen, etc).
They are also on 'Hire Units' list having their resource cost and 0 seconds training time.

2. Can be profitable.
We got skins for cities, skins for players so why not skins for mercs (and potentially normal units)?
Also due to the unit mechanic prestige can be used to augment mercs limit (later in limitations).

3. Interesting for new players.
When we just started we were ovewhelmed by Illyriad (still overwhelmed here). But one thing that is very unavailable for new players is fighting. Yes you can hunt some (small) npc armies. When it comes to serious stuff or defending yourself, armies are too expensive to sustain (long term) and to build.

4. Interesting for old players.
So you send your army from capital to hunt animals. Your neighbour saw that. Now his army hunts your city. Mercenaries can be effective when you need and urgent defending force.

5. Consistent with Illyriad.
Mercenaries are a type of unit that is consistent with Illyriad universe and its vast and complicated mechanics. I think that they wont change the way we play but will enrich the game and make it more dynamic.

Concept.
1. Unit.
Mercenary is a short-term unit that is available to all races and comes in four categories:  Spearmen, Bowmen, Infantry and Horsemen. It has an icon and works just like any other military unit under your control; you can add them to an army and you can disband them just as send them far far away to fight. It is a situational unit with low stats but high speed and zero training time. You can use it to protect a defenceless city, or to farm some animals around you.

2. Statistics.
Since mercs are not professional soldiers and dont learn how to fight side by side with others theirstats are lower that normal. Thus their fighting capabilities (Attack) are lower than weakest T1 (first tier unit, ex.: dwarven yeoman) counterpart. They arent rich; their equipment is worn out and their defence is also lower than their weakest T1 counterpart. Their plundering abilities being the same, mercenaries wander alot in the land of Illyria thus their movement speed is slightly higher than their counterparts (technically fastest military units). However they are hired and thats a big plus of mercs.

2. Cost + Limitations.
Mercs value their life thus they demand a high price for their swords. Hiring costs a heavy amount of gold. The duration of training however is zero seconds since you dont need to train these people.
They also got their own equipment so you dont need to get armors or swords.

Here lies one huge problem. Some people will say that 1000 gold is alot for one merc (those whostarted) others (like myself) will say that, citing: 'If a merc costs 1000 gold, i can hire army bigger than this server right now'. So should it be 1k or more?If its too expensive, new players wont be able to hire mercs. If its too cheap, normal army will become obsolete. So there should be limits and those limits do exist (note that limits may be combined in any way).

Easiest method
One idea is to augment the price by adding beer to it. A price of 1 or 2 beers plus 1k gold is morelogic and even more consistent with the universe (because people have to be drunk to be working with you!). It doesnt severely limit new players but limits older players from going wild. Need more limits? No problem! Raise the upkeep to crazy heights (that truly makes a short term merc unit - which is the most logic way to limit this unit).

Surest method
Another idea consists in giving limits to the amount of mercs you can have. For example: you  cannot hire more mercs than the population of the city. It is harder to implement because  mercenaries will require more coding than other military units.

Contract method
YOPO. You only pay once. Thats right, you pay one huge price once to hire mercs. Use them like you want. However when you pay you decide the contract length - it can be 1 day or it can even be a month! After, the units disappear.

Cap
Adding a cooldown after you get an army of mercs. No matter how big an army you get, after purchase in any city there is a global cooldown of X week(s)/month(s)/etc.

3. Requirements.
Just like any other unit mercs will require some research. I suggest putting it in the 'Quest' tab.  Mercenary reearch will require Tavern level 1-5 (even if you hire them in the barracks).

Additional Ideas.
1. Mercenary armies
Intead of hiring a unit, you have an option (in 'Armies' tab) to hire an army. This mercenary army  cant be modified (though the option of commander is open for discussion) but otherwise has the limitations of time/price/upkeep I proposed before.

2. Special units mercenaries.
Previously I discussed military units but same can work just as well with non military units. Why  not have scouts that are not very qualified but are instantly available to you?

3 . Players' army for hire.
Hard to implement, but some people suggested to give their armies for hire. May work just like trading in the market, but you have to choose armies tab.

tl;dr: I suggest implementing an expensive, weak unit with zero training time.

---------------------------------------------
IMPORTANT -  READ THIS PLEASE
Many considered this idea bad and overpowered since they found it easy to make armies of mercs. As an engineer student i would love to throw some numbers :D
Lets say the merc amount is limited by your population.
You as a pro player decide to hire 30000 mercs and send them to fight. Lets see what happens.

1. If base price is 1k gold (without beer) then you have to pay 30 000 000 right away. Also include the upkeep: it can range from 10 to 50 gph (gold/hour), thus making the hourly cost range from 300 000 to 1 500 000 gold PER HOUR.

2. If you think that you will vanquish all your enemies YOU ARE WRONG. Mercenary force of 30k tropps WONT save your city from a 40k assault of horseman just because the merc unit is the weakest unit from all available to hire. However it can be useful to help main army or to do sneak attacks on defenceless cities.

3. Rich people will kill all of us.Nope nope and nope. They will most probably fight each other. That will add dynamic to the game as well as new tactical options (like enemy can see army coming to his city but he cant know its composition).

4. Also it provides a nice gold sink.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink

IMPORTANT -  READ THIS PLEASE
---------------------------------------------

Thanks for reading.

[Edit 17/12/2015 - added cooldown in limitations]
[Edit 16/12/2015 - Important section with numbers]
 
Sorry for quoting the entire text, I don't know how to do a single part. So the part I'm quoting is the part between the IMPORTANT-Read This Please.
1. Getting 30M gold is not overly difficult. And beer is relatively cheap. Price is around 80 gold per beer. So for 30K troops it would cost around 32.4M-34.8M(depending on if it is one beer or two beer to make). Again, if you are being sieged, upkeep doesn't matter since you would send them to be killed, by having them destroy your sieges for you.
2. There is no real value defending your city from a direct attack, since all it will do is take some basic res if they win, and reveal the type and number of troops you have if they lose.
3. Why would rich people kill each other, purposely? Can you guarantee they will fight each other? No, you are just guessing.
This is my hypothesis, based of off information gathered in GC, AC, forums and the views of certain militarised players. PvP in Illy favours the defender, with all the work required behind breaking a siege is scouting, than clicking a button that sends troops to kill. For setting up sieges, you need to coordinate with your allies, sending troops so they arrive at almost the same time, for most effective use. This can mean waking up at odd hours in the night, or have to do it at work. That is more complicated and stressful that scouting and clicking a button. While sitters can help, it requires a certain measure of trust. Giving the ability to instantly create troops with a high upkeep would be a huge drain on gold if you sent them to set up sieges, way easier to break sieges. Knowing that your opponent can create their pop's worth in troops instantly for less gold than it takes to create cav units would make sieges less happy in sending sieges, they might even decide not too. Mercs could cause less PvP overall, and any that do favouring the ones with the deepest pockets, not those with the best strategies. This is a possibility, not saying it is true, or guaranteed to happen, it is an possibility.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2015 at 13:37
Originally posted by Ptolemy Ptolemy wrote:

Sorry for quoting the entire text, I don't know how to do a single part. So the part I'm quoting is the part between the IMPORTANT-Read This Please.
delete the text you don't need. be sure the quote ends with a closing tag (one of which you have at the end of the quoted bit automatically).

Originally posted by Ptolemy Ptolemy wrote:

This is my hypothesis, based of off information gathered in GC, AC, forums and the views of certain militarised players. PvP in Illy favours the defender...
if only.

it would be good, i think, to have an emissary quest to recruit local faction forces to one's cause, with results based on one's faction standing. this would give the quest mechanic some relevance to the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeathDealer89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2015 at 03:09
Make each hub have a certain number of mercs.

Namely armies of 100, 1k, 10k, 100k able to accept one set of orders and then another when they return.  Then make players bid on it.  The market will set the price, in peace 1k per troop may be common, in war I'm sure it will explode to like 100k per troop.

It also provides for a use of for faction standing since having a 50% discount on troops would be huge.  You could also add extra things such as each hub has an amount of troops related to the size of trade in the faction.

I remember seeing something about faction cities at one point.  If those get added then they would also be part of it.

This would mean having traders in hubs all over becomes more important.  

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gragnog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2015 at 14:53
As much as this sounds like a nice idea it will do nothing but enhance the power of the large inactive alliances with all their perma sat accounts who just generate gold and equipment for them. They already have made so much gold through the taxing of those accounts that bringing in another element that favors them and excludes new and smaller alliances just makes it so that the dwindling active player base will decline even further as new players will never be able to compete in any events.

The only way it would work is for gold reserves to be depleted by the devs and only newly generated gold would become a part of the game. Now that is not going to happen as the players will moan and moan because their cash cows will be eliminated and the smaller upstart alliances and players will become powerful due to their ability to actually play and wars will bloom. As it is now there are a few prestige players who stifle the game and thus actually preventing a much larger base of prestige buyers from entering the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inferno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2015 at 15:36
I like the idea of mercenaries but instant troops equals instant power, and instant power however small is bad IMO, so no to that part of the idea.

However, being able to "recruit" faction troops at hubs (the good old fashioned way) is a really good idea, they would cost gold and/or other basic resources to produce them, so here is your gold sink. 

Faction troops having different stats than those of the players and the ability to recruit those for gold and resources directly without resorting to t2 resources I think would offer some more depth to the game.

The cost and production time OFC should be somewhat similar to those of regular troops, meaning when you strip down say t2 cavalry to it's actual gold cost, the faction counterpart would be within that range, if not higher, since those are extra troops that you can recruit outside your barracks, same for production time.

Just a comment on the " meaning when you strip down say t2 cavalry to it's actual gold cost, the faction counterpart would be within that range" part, maybe have the faction troop costs tied to the market prices of their player counterpart troops t2 res requirements? like whenever the average price of say saddles rise or drop in the market, the faction cavalry unit price would adjust to that, that way their costs will always be somewhat relevant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote demdigs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2015 at 17:27
I believe that if factions are involved with mercenaries i believe that faction standings must be involved, if a faction hates u at -90 standings they would not provide u with mercenaries, additionally, the cost per unit should be tied to the standings, ie, if u are 0 standings with the faction it should cost more then if u are +90 with the same faction. Which would make choosing which factions and the setup of your alliance much more important. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shûl-nak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2015 at 18:55
After reading the other posts and thinking on it a bit more, I thought I'd offer something a bit clearer on the subject.

Mercenaries & Balance

Instant troops for gold is a pay-to-win exchange that would damage the game, making prestige items effectively translate into large armies on the fly. I feel that a player focussed on, let's say, gold accumulation via advanced resource production and trade, should never be able to come close to the capabilities of a player whose cities are geared for military production at a moment's notice.

But the mercenary system would allow them some recourse, and throw more variables into play when considering conflicts.

It would be totally possible to implement this system fairly so long as sufficient restrictions are in place.There have been a number of good suggestions in this thread for tackling those issues:

1. Buying mercenaries is restricted to faction hubs staffed by your traders. Mercenaries must journey from said hub to your faction's city before they can be used, mitigating 'instant army' issues.

2. Player standing with faction: too low and they will not sell to you at all; higher standing might open up larger numbers of mercenaries for trade, or offer a wider selection of troops, as well as better prices.

3. Stock of mercenaries available. This would be a vital variable for controlling the impact of mercenaries on the various scales of warfare in Illyriad. A small scuffle between two players might hinge on the strength of a 'surprise' merc army; an alliance-wide conflict with armies numbering in the tens of thousands would be less impacted by them.

3.1. Certain units might only be available as rewards from faction quests at higher standings, offering a small number of more powerful units that are otherwise unattainable, similar to the orcs' wolf-providing quest. Accumulation of these powerful soldiers would be possible, then, but as a result of time and effort invested in factions, not simply by throwing gold at things.

4. Cost of mercenaries; some might demand a gold lump sum as well as upkeep p/h; others might have more unusual demands, such as rare gathering items or crafted equipment - these non-gold exchanges might be handled exclusively via the Faction Quest system. Warlike factions would no doubt offer troops as rewards more frequently.

5. Unit effectiveness. There are multiple ways of approaching this: a look at puzzleslogic's troop stat charts will show you that. The troops might be on par with your own soldiers, but cost a ludicrous amount to keep. Or maybe they have high attack and cavalry unit-type, but they still move much slower than your own cavalry.

So Why Bother?

Having put all these restrictions in place, you might wonder what the point of having these troops is at all.

Well: a city who is not packing military production sovereignty and a L20 barracks can still gather up some troops at a faster rate than they could otherwise. I'd argue it's better to inflict losses and lose than simply lose.

A city that is packing troop sov could buy a few extra troops for a little extra punch, should they so wish. However, it would likely be the case that their gold would be better spent on continuing to produce their own troops at a more efficient exchange rate of res/gold/time:atk/def rather than fork out extra for a meagre boost.

Non-humanoid units, and units with magical powers, could become available for use, giving players reason to consider a broader range of equipment, such as magic defense/bonus vs monstrous and the like.

Certain units could also have powerful bonuses on ultra-specific terrain sets or conditions, such as only when attacking animals in jungle forests, or defending arctic mountains from orcs... The abundance of boar spears means I can only mourn for any player who ends up with an army full of animals, though.

Last but by no means least, the rule of cool. As an orc player I'd love to have an army of ogres, trolls, goblins, orcs, and all the other greenish nasties at my disposal.

To Conclude

Factions are distributed all across Illyria, so players of all types will end up dealing with them in one way or another. So long as we acknowledge and then avoid implementing the obvious imbalances the merc system could promote, such as a limitless pay-to-win army system, what could possibly go wrong..?



Edited by Shûl-nak - 21 Dec 2015 at 19:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote demdigs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2015 at 19:00
To expand on my idea, prices would be very expensive per unit when -90, and very cheap when +90. I would say 4000 gold per hour per troop when -90, with a limit of 100 troops  at 0 faction standings u can pay 500 gold per hour with a total amount of troops being approximately 5000 troops. With +90 faction standings the gold per hour being 5 gold per hour with a limit of 100k troops. I believe that it should be closer to a bell curve, with the 90's being extremes in limits in gold per hour and the amounts of troops allowed to purchase  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canesrule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2015 at 13:17
Being able to hire mercs from Factions will mean that players with deep pockets will be able to buy prestige, sell it and have large gold reserves as a result of these sales. This in turn makes it possible to hire huge merc numbers. It just makes the game Pay to Win.


Edited by Canesrule - 22 Dec 2015 at 13:23
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