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DeathDealer89 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2013 at 22:50
Originally posted by twilights twilights wrote:

i think something that needs to be addressed is how lack of gm involvement in the current game is enabling the game to become crazy full of resources, gold, and armies. with current game mechanics of slow builds and the destructive nature of warfare the game needs to provide ways of using these massive amounts of resources being produced. instead of addressing that issue we are seeing our aging mature game becoming very rich and nothing to really spend them on but dated mechanics that are tedious to perform. with current sitting and deletion rules and lack of threats players have billions just sitting there...hubs can store unlimited resources and there is little need for military....there must be over 2000 to 3000 accounts with 6 or more castles and this amount is increasing...the gms must address this issue and really take a look at their mission statement of non involvement and their direction of  adding more land.

What problems do you see that the devs should fix that you can't?  
You think there is to much gold and res in the game.  Buy all the res up and send them to the HOC. 
To much armies.  Go attack big cities to lower the size of your armies  and theirs losing res in the process.  To many big players go on a killing spree.  Either you will lower the number of cities other players have or everyone will lower the number of cities you have either way less big players.  
Lack of threats, you just became one and I'm sure you will anger enough people to have lots of threats.  

Why should the devs fix any of your 'problems' when you can fix them yourself.  Not to mention most people wouldn't even consider your 'problems' bad they would indicate the opposite.  In fact i hope  instead of 2-3k accounts with 6  or more castes we get 4-6k accounts with 10 castles.  Means more people are playing the game.  You will find most of the stuff you claim to be problems just comes with the overall increase in the population of illy.



Edited by DeathDealer89 - 07 Aug 2013 at 23:00
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Salararius View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2013 at 03:20
"House of Cards" is not correct, it implies a level of organization and structure that software development can not meet.  Agreeably, any given piece of code is many times more stable than any single card.  Also agreeably, stacks of code are generally many times more stable than stacks of cards.  But some stacks of code fall down over and over and over and are darn well impossible to correct.  Like stacking cards in a wind tunnel.  That's the strength and weakness of software in a nutshell.  So many young developers seem to think that a completed function will always "just work".  They don't realize how many pieces of code that have been around for decades still don't work as they are supposed to because no one ever tested them extensively or got priority (from management) to fix them when told they were broken.  These legacy issues create mountains of cascading "work arounds " and bugs and then if "corrected" create mountains of fixes to the fixes.  Of course, all that is hidden behind a massive complex of coders, 60 hour workweeks and "patches".  Management addresses this by seeking the lower and lower cost "mythical man month" coder (as you move up the pyramid) and the whole thing stumbles on in mediocrity as advancing hardware hides the inefficiencies .  That, in a nutshell, is 90% of the software industry today.

The trouble is, software is a non-linear system of exponential complexity and there are no quality metrics and no way to perform a mathematical stability analysis.  It's a crap shoot with the short term odds in your favor and the best tool available is usage based quality control.

Not reviewing and classifying  every "identified" flaw in a system is a mistake.  Likely a little mistake, potentially a big mistake, but there is no system to differentiate.  Yes, professional quality control would reduce the number of flaws the developers need address (that should be a job at Illy) but they "can't afford that".  Sure, spelling errors are trivial, unless they are in a DB and some dev starts matching things based on spelling.  How do you classify petitions as "important" or not unless you review them and identify the cause (or at least identify the likely underlying functions).  Maybe you have 500 petitions, all looking obscure and different but all floating over some very common code that you're depending on for your new "big thing".  What exact methodology let's you determine if a petition is "important" or not?  How exactly (that word is the rub) do you know that you can ignore 90% of the petitions unless you look at 100% of the petitions?  If your quality control system sucks that bad, then you need a new quality control system.  If the petition system isn't part of quality control, then what is it?  If you can ignore 90% of the petitions but you don't have a system to identify that 90% then you should probably ignore 100% of the petitions and eliminate or re-tool the petition system.

Personally, not fixing a simple spelling mistake is just lazy.

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Angrim View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2013 at 07:05
Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

How do you classify petitions as "important" or not unless you review them and identify the cause (or at least identify the likely underlying functions).
how illyriad does it is a question i cannot answer, but classifying them by the severity of symptoms, the number of players affected, and the quality of information provided would seem to maximise the chances of addressing severe, high-profile problems while minimising the time to fix them.

Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

How exactly (that word is the rub) do you know that you can ignore 90% of the petitions unless you look at 100% of the petitions?
i would not jump to the conclusion that they are not all reviewed.  GM Luna could answer that.

Originally posted by Salararius Salararius wrote:

Personally, not fixing a simple spelling mistake is just lazy.
personally, i would not make that comment to a developer that had just finished a 14 hour day preparing Broken Lands for release.  i don't think either of us has enough information about the work habits of the illyriad developers to call them lazy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2013 at 17:28
i have one additional suggestion that may have been made here before.  in reviewing my own petitions, i have found one i should like to withdraw, but there is no mechanism for that.  it might help GM Luna see through the "noise" if players could close their own petitions voluntarily.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2013 at 17:35
Just a few comments:

1. The significance of a problem is judged by the customer, not by the business. A business that dismisses customer problems as frivolous or unimportant will eventually have no customers.

2. Most businesses do a very poor job of planning the development and launch of new products or services. In my 30-year career our unofficial motto was "there's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over". You can get away with providing an inadequate product or service only if you're the only one who has it and customers are willing to overlook the problems because they really want the benefits.

3. Not caring about minor problems will be viewed as not caring about major ones either (the "broken windows" principle).


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2013 at 18:38
Originally posted by Llyr Llyr wrote:

The significance of a problem is judged by the customer, not by the business. A business that dismisses customer problems as frivolous or unimportant will eventually have no customers.
it will be judged by both.  and the definition of "customer" here is an interesting one...a large number of players do not pay for the game.  are they customers, or prospective customers?  given illyriad's business model, players who do not pay must, i think, be considered more as party guests than as customers.  illyriad has invited everyone, wants everyone to enjoy themselves...but the party is what the creators and contributors want it to be, and can make it, within the scope of their skills and budget.  if some guests are unhappy with the quality of the food or venue, they will leave, and it must be so.

Originally posted by Llyr Llyr wrote:

In my 30-year career our unofficial motto was "there's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over".
again, i'm certain that the suspension of time and resource constraints would result in much more solid software.  (actually, i am not, because much software suffers from a failure to identify correctly its purpose at the outset, or to build with change in mind, but the *management* impact on quality would disappear with the elimination of time and resources as considerations.)  this is a bit like saying that getting uphill would be easier without gravity, though, so i don't see it as a very fertile topic.  if one is preparing appetizers for said party and they aren't quite up to one's usual standard, i would argue that quality is best served by delivering them in time rather than better the next day.  i wonder how the workers in any of the companies in which you served would have reacted if management had decided to put off a product release for month with the announcement:  "we understand your priorities.  we won't be able to pay you for August, but the product will be something of which you can be proud."

Originally posted by Llyr Llyr wrote:

You can get away with providing an inadequate product or service only if you're the only one who has it and customers are willing to overlook the problems because they really want the benefits.
i've no idea in what sense you're using "inadequate".  if you mean that the product or service does not satisfy *all* of a customer's needs, inclusively, then all products and services are inadequate--else you would need only one.  if you mean inadequate in the sense that it does not deliver benefits that outweigh the disadvantages (including time to learn, to implement, etc.), then it is not applicable here, since customers would not continue to purchase or use it (and we wouldn't be "getting away with providing" it.)  if you mean "inadequate" in the sense that customers' expectations are not met, that is as easily a problem with marketing as it is with quality.  products can only be inadequate *to* some standard, and their inadequacy is usually considered proven or disproven by the market.  in the case of illyriad, the player base is deteriorating, which might indicate inadequacy, but i think it has little to do with petitions going unanswered.

Originally posted by Llyr Llyr wrote:

Not caring about minor problems will be viewed as not caring about major ones either (the "broken windows" principle).
if this is the theory to which you refer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory), it would seem to be applicable only to the builders' attitudes about the product, as customers cannot break more windows.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2013 at 23:37
I believe the idea that the player base is deteriorating is subjective in one sense. That is, that a relatively large number of players began in Illyriad in conjunction with advertising through Facebook and Google (perhaps elsewhere but I know those happened). For example, I stumbled across Illyriad when I first started using Chrome and tried it. I believe there has been little to no advertising as of late and therefore the player base, through what one could characterize as normal attrition is slowly dwindling. If I missed it and there has been advertising lately, this theory is bunk.

As Broken Lands and Factions roll out I would assume we will see a spike in new players. Certainly in BL but in Elgea too. It's August, so according to the original announcement we should have an influx of newbs in the next 4 or 5 months. Can't wait to see all the posts complaining about that.
Bonfyr Verboo
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2013 at 04:11
I am a bit intolerant of folks who need new stuff constantly to have fun in a sandbox...

Why do you need new sand to have fun? There are Tons of really, really interesting folks here who have all sorts of relationships and strategic positions... The whole point is we make our OWN fun...

If you are bored, start something! (not that I've ever done that...)

It's like blaming the word processing program for writer's block...

Just my 2 cents.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2013 at 06:55
For anyone who read the post above about withdrawing a petition, there is a mechanism for that.  If you update with your petition with a note to the effect of a) nevermind I'm an idiot, it is really working the way it should or b) upon reflection this makes no difference anyway or c) this was addressed by by the update on Date Here and say "please close this petition" often they will close the petition.  (Unless they decide it is still important for them to remember it.)

Edited to add: Not that I've ever had to close a petition I shouldn't have opened because I was an idiot.  Not me.  Ever.  It was my "friend."


Edited by Rill - 11 Aug 2013 at 06:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2013 at 08:18
As some of you may know, I recently sent a welfare check to GM TC's cities in the frozen north with a load of legwarmers and hot cocoa. (note: His city had no rainbow at the time of sending). I received a mail back saying that my army had been sent back to my city possibly due to illegal gameplay. Since when is it illegal to send a feint against a city that has no rainbow? After a thorough review of the Terms and conditions, and the Gameplay rules, i have been unable to locate any specific reference to it being illegal gameplay to send a welfare check to a dev's city. Perhaps, if the devs want this rule, they should actually add it to the gameplay rules and terms and condtions. And on a side note, I am happy to report that GM TC is alive and kicking, as he is my fav dev of all time.  
Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. -
     Buddha
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