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Rill View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2012 at 18:19
Thanks for the description of simulation vs. modeling, I learned something new!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2012 at 18:38
Calico, I stand with you in wishing battle was prolonged and thus different armies would "pile in" to the same battle with the added excitement and realism that would provide--the magnitude of their combined effect depending on the timing of their arrival as well as their strength.

In fact I was the first to make such a proposal, which I outlined in as granular and practical/thorough detail as I could muster without having access to the existing code.  I'd love to see this happen.

Just to clarify, however, this does involve converting the system from modelling to simulating.  In fact the prolonged version would not really take any more processor time.  Each new arrival and departure would trigger a recalculation, but so does each new individual battle in the current setup.  There isn't actually anything "happening" between such events, similar to how the server only knows your current resource levels at the moments when you manually observe or use them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 14:31
Originally posted by Rill Rill wrote:

Thanks for the description of simulation vs. modeling, I learned something new!

I second that statement! 
- Drydenn, Diplomat for the Free Trade Guild & Trade Assembly member of the Illyriad Trade Union
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 16:44
I hesitate before posting this because on the one hand I don't want to contradict anyone but on the other I'm not sure this whole simulating/modeling thing is right.  I always learned (as a controls engineer working in modelling and simulation at NASA) that a model is a physical or mathematical representation of "thing".  Modeling was the act of building/creation/development a model.  It wasn't some derivative of a simulation or a simpler simulation process.

Simulation was when you took a "model" (or models) and used it to represent a physical process (you add the time element).

Similar to the difference between a 'noun' and a 'verb'.

You model an airplane, you simulate flight.  You model soldiers, weapons, terrain, weather, emotions, strength, endurance, training, etc... you simulate battle.  Etc...

The detail of the simulation (ie. how many levels of models used, the complexity of the equations or the number of iterations required to obtain results) was irrelevant to the definition of a simulation.  Sometimes a simple model will give very accurate simulation results (example, the mathematical model F = G * m1 * m2 / r^2 works near perfectly and is used to simulate gravity very well despite it's simplicity).  Then there are things like global warming where we have many, many very detailed models that when put together do not simulate weather as perfectly.

I realize this definition doesn't help to explain what HM was trying to convey so it really won't help anyone in the context of this thread.  I believed that people felt they were learning something bigger in this thread and that didn't seem to be so.  Just because Illyriad uses a simple model that can simulate battle in one calculation doesn't mean it's not a simulation.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2012 at 07:00
Originally posted by HonoredMule HonoredMule wrote:

Calico, I stand with you in wishing battle was prolonged and thus different armies would "pile in" to the same battle with the added excitement and realism that would provide--the magnitude of their combined effect depending on the timing of their arrival as well as their strength.

In fact I was the first to make such a proposal, which I outlined in as granular and practical/thorough detail as I could muster without having access to the existing code.  I'd love to see this happen.


I also believe that a "pile in over time" combat mechanism would be more interesting.  That's what I always loved about the Europa Universalis game system.

But, it would be tremendously more complicated from a state management point of view.  They would need to rework a large amount of code. I'm talking about HUGE orders of difficulty compared to the current instant results model. 

The difficulty isn't in the actual "pile in" combat code (the algorithms for resolving combat over time), the difficulties would be in managing the suspended state of the combatants.  The combating armies would need to be placed in a "combat limbo" state.  Doing that could be fairly easy, the tricky part is you have to rework all of the code that works around and could affect those armies, commanders and resources while they are in "combat limbo".  There would be a million opportunities for interesting race conditions.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2012 at 15:29
Originally posted by Denizar Denizar wrote:


The difficulty isn't in the actual "pile in" combat code (the algorithms for resolving combat over time), the difficulties would be in managing the suspended state of the combatants.  The combating armies would need to be placed in a "combat limbo" state.  Doing that could be fairly easy, the tricky part is you have to rework all of the code that works around and could affect those armies, commanders and resources while they are in "combat limbo".  There would be a million opportunities for interesting race conditions.


This brings to mind turn-based game mechanics - I hit you, then wait while you hit me, then I hit you, etc., etc., with the game recalculating hit points, defense, etc. in between turns. 
This approach has the advantage that it allows the possibility of a new player joining at any turn, or reinforcements being added, or a player retreating and so on.  If a turn was an hour long and it took, say, 48 turns to resolve a very large battle (1 or 2 for small battles), then maybe this would simulate "combat limbo."
Since a player may not be around to monitor the battle constantly, perhaps some sort of (semi)automation could be added such as retreat minimums per division (zero = kamikaze), or auto-reinforcing if numbers fall too low, etc.  Alliance members could join in at strategic moments.
I don't know how satisfying this approach would be but I suspect it may not require elaborate coding since events are not happening in "real" time.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2012 at 15:54
a lot has been said in this thread. My two cents:

First: I think the combat mechanics are very simple. This is a choice by the devs. They could have made it more complex, but then it would require a lot more effort to code and require more server resources. It would also be harder to balance.

Second: Combat in Illy is deterministic. If you know all the factors (troop numbers, commander stats and terrain) there can always be only 1 result. There is no randomness. Many people like to be surprised. A bit of thrill here and there is good. For most Illy players, the lack of understanding is enough thrill. You can't really predict the outcome if you don't know how it works. If you do know how it works, then I suppose it might be boring to already know you're going to win or lose beforehand.

Personally I think there are many things that can be improved (and by improved I mean expanded) about the combat system, but I feel it should come after:

-magic being made useful
-trade v2
-faction AI
-pathfinding
-several annoying bugs that still aren't fixed (tavern for example still doesn't work!!!)

It's all about the priorities!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2012 at 18:01
I think the key is that you only know the result if you know all the factors.  What makes combat in Illy exciting is that in any PvP situation (and increasingly in PvE situations), we don't know all the factors.  We know terrain, we may have insight into troops from scouting, and we can perhaps make a good guess on commander skills, but in any extended war or tournament, there's plenty of uncertainty for me.

With the minor exception of the case where one is performing a sally forth from a besieged city from which one just got an accurate scout report on the encampment, the non-terrain variables in Illy PvP can be predicted but not known.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2012 at 18:33
Nice post Rill, i agree with you.Calculating numbers are only 1/10 of any battle betveen real players.And with new diplo changes that devs will make there will be even greater element of surprise.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2012 at 18:47
There are also situations where you do not have time to wait for a scout report.
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