HIDE THE HUBS |
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Sif 
Greenhorn   Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Location: Athens Status: Offline Points: 84 |
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 Quote Reply  Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 22:25 |
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Closing centrum even temporarily would be a bad idea; people have trillions of resources stored there. To close centrum you'd either have to bar access to said trillion resources, or teleport it.... somewhere? Not in to towns, as they'd overflow... another hub.... at which point I guess that hub becomes the de facto centrum. Either choice is bad.===>>>
teleporting to the closer to the capital hub or something like that
Without closing centrum, hiding centrum would not help as there's enough force behind centrum to sustain it as the de facto choice. ===>>> tottaly agree
but that ship has sailed. ===>>> as long as the captein is in deck there is time to change the ship line
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| demdigs
Postmaster   Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Status: Offline Points: 570 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 22:53 |
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things might get more interesting when factions become active. if an alliance accidentally becomes negative in the standings with centrum and higher taxes and reaches -35 things might get very interesting. It might cause a diversification of hubs.
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| Sif
Greenhorn Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Location: Athens Status: Offline Points: 84 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 22:57 |
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things might get more interesting when factions become active. if an alliance accidentally becomes negative in the standings with centrum and higher taxes and reaches -35 things might get very interesting. It might cause a diversification of hubs.====>>>>i can hope on that a bit but if they see the centrum prices the main Problem still remain imo
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| Bolism
New Poster  Joined: 22 Aug 2018 Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 23:39 |
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I can understand the appeal for some people that want to be more involved in the trading, but the game not been set like this. A tool to track the prices in different hubs, is already around in some trading alliances (manually updated, track couple of 100 items prices in the hub they are interested in...). And just the fact that gc exists gonna kill most of your incentive. In a couple of second people can figure out the avg prices. As thirion explained before, we got the communication tools, you want to remove that too?
And no I don't want my goods that are in centrum to be in a closer hub, I spent time to move that there for that reason.
In a sand box like illyriad, with the functionalities that been build, in my opinion your idea will just kill the trading in hub even more, and reinforce the central place of centrum, or worth for you would have a spreadsheet public with the pricing avg/current in a bunch of hub. For the basic stuff I use centrum for the fun part it's often off market.
A trader is and has always been a middle man, and depending on places mostly moving stuff from point a to b, where then the local "trusted" distribution centers took over. Importance of trust! From that trust (and some time loss of) some tools been implemented, msrp, Price control etc. But thats a total different game you are designing here.
As mentioned already to you, that would mostly make the rich richer and that's about it.
we can do harvesting/hunting/tourney/trading on same account in illy, you want to restrict that too?
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| eowan the short
Postmaster  Joined: 03 Jan 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 937 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 01:14 |
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And what if said hub is hostile to said player? What if their closest hub is centrum? What if their trader town is not their capital and so a different hub is preferential? What stops centrum from returning to the de facto place once it re-opens? For that matter, how long are you closing it for?
You introduce a lot of short term pain and complexity, not to mention dev-time, in exchange for long term fairly minimal benefit as people
will coordinate; even with centrum in existence, pushes for BL equivalents have taken place with varying degrees of success. End result is it becomes easier to scam newbs in to accepting unfair prices just because they haven't been brought up to speed yet, no one else is affected.
A significant portion of trading is done via GC or just trade deals anyway; if I'm buying bulk equipment, trade hubs are usually the last place I look. Taxes get avoided like the plague here.
In terms of the realism argument I've seen you make, the setting is
fantasy. There are orcs and elves and dwarves. We have magic. Literal demons stalk the land, not to mention ogres and trolls and giant plant-heart that eats people and spits out fungus monsters. Soldiers aren't people; they count nothing towards population, food consumption and pay no taxes. Please explain why a simple messaging magic is beyond the scope of possibility in Illyria.
Finally, read the room. People campaigned for
years to get a BL centrum. I saw pushes on Windmire back 2016 spearheaded by Lord Kalobas arguing for a centrum of the south. Hope ridge became the successful one but this was not some spontaneous movement. The majority of players want centrum/hope ridge to exist, what do the devs gain by taking away what they only recently have given?
Edited by eowan the short - 23 Mar 2022 at 01:15 |
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This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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| Sif
Greenhorn Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Location: Athens Status: Offline Points: 84 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 06:36 |
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PRODUCER => TRADER => COSTUMER
when the producer sell direct to the costumer there is no trader (Producer => Costumer)
, so it not about more trading is about engage trading.
I understand that GC will cut some of that so I would like not allowed at GC speaking about prices so if you want to advertise your products to be forced to pay more in traders upkeep.
All the deals are made by other ways via GC are been made by the default knowledge of the prices so changing that will change and the out HUB trade
As I said I really don’t care who get richer and who get poorer . I also don t care if it would make the game more complex (I want to be easier but by cutting micromanagement no by cutting motivation to interact ) . what I care is an aspect that will motivate you to interact trying to became richer or less poor .
I totally disagree to don’t add any aspect in the game because some or all established player will lose their effort ( the DEVS could neglect the lost if wanted to ex. free speeding vans for a week )
About the realistic argument if you believe that the god of Illyria after the ddisappearance of the bloody cast of warriors from the world decide to get rid and the greedy and insatiable cast of the traders |
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| Thirion
Forum Warrior  Joined: 10 Apr 2018 Status: Offline Points: 248 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 08:41 |
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Sif, you have a fantasy of how you want trade to be - but that is unrealistic and never going to work. You want us to use an axe to cut a forest - when we have a chainsaw or even more modern tools at home. People write tools for games to make them more convenient. Thats how games work today.
In addition i do not think you have much experience with trading in Illyriad. I do.
In real life most producing companies allow you to directly buy from them. But it is more convenient to buy at the local store or at a global store that has everything - thus traders become relevant. It is mostly because of convenience though. Amazon for example does not have the best price or best reputation. But it has everything - thus people use it.
Your suggestions would lead to the opposite though. Convenience in real life and games is important. Most people do not want to waste their time looking for something. Without Centrum 2 things would happen:
Instead of Centrum the big traders are going to set the price. Which essentially is the current version but worse.
Why would you engage 10 smaller players that might or might not have the items you want available? When instead you could just ask a big trader that has the items for sure. Or ask in GC - someone is going to answer there.
Why as a trader would you move items to smaller hubs when they just rot there? When instead you can tell people to come to "your" hub to trade.
That is a really important factor though. Your suggestions would make the entry for trading a lot higher - thus a lot of the smaller and new traders would just disappear. So instead of making trading more interesting you just make it not worth it for a lot of people that are currently trading.
Which is already the case. With your suggestions it would become worse.
Edited by Thirion - 23 Mar 2022 at 08:43 |
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| eowan the short
Postmaster Joined: 03 Jan 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 937 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 09:00 |
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In real life economies, vertical integration is a thing. Producers can and do act as the retailer in many cases. In real life economies, organic coordination towards a trading hub is also a thing; think London, New York and Tokyo. This is why your idea doesn't work.
From a realist standpoint, your idea fails totally.
If you want people to engage with trading, then focus on the metagame of trading. I ran a bank in illy some years ago, and another guy ran a bonds program. Both received a lot of interest from the community. The system as-is is fine for promoting trading activity, it's just that the act of trading is somewhat niche as an area of interest.
If you want something to get implemented, you need broad support for it from both the devs and the player base. You will not get this for the idea of hiding hubs.
I'm not saying it is not conceivable for hubs to be hidden within illyria, I am saying that it is not unrealistic for hubs to be visible as is, given what we know of the world. It's not a direct copy of real life.
Your proposal for banning trading chat from GC is unrealistic, draconian and a terrible idea.
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This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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| Sif
Greenhorn Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Location: Athens Status: Offline Points: 84 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 09:16 |
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PRODUCER => TRADER => CUSTOMER
do you know any trader ? and if you do what is his job ?
does he do something similar to the Amazon or just have patient and trade just for the score ?
i would be very happy if i was new and at some point realise that traders taking advantage of me , it would be realy chalenging and really motivating for me the efort to overcome this .= which is the point for me and i think for most plaiers the felling that you achieve someting creative due to your skills.
farthermore i believe that in some deree the lack of trading is and the main reason that crafting is also not worth it
for advance crafting : since you know the prices of the harvesters the crafted need to be made when you want to buy ,so the crafter profit is very close to the prices of the harvested item so not really motivate even there
and
for basick : i am sure this system affects them ( i don t have patient to think how .lol)
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| eowan the short
Postmaster Joined: 03 Jan 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 937 |
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Quote Reply Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 09:24 |
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I was a trader. I bought low and sold high. I ran a bank doing this. Only reason why I stopped is the amount of effort required to run a bank interfered with my education.
Plenty of crafting is worth it, that's why people do it. The reason why some equipment is not worth it is because the stats on the equipment are bad.
Edited by eowan the short - 23 Mar 2022 at 09:25 |
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This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some person started it, not knowing what it was, and we'll continue posting on it forever just because...
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Sif wrote: