fighting crime

Torn Sky wrote: As HM pointed out, Stealing is wrong but murdering troops then taking resources are ok? Also if the kids are getting their morals from a game then there parents are not doing a very good job of raising their kids.

yes, parents should raise their kids better. Sad reality is they increasingly don't, and kids get it off TV, internet, online gaming etc...

I can't explain my point better then this. The commanding of armies that will slaughter foes without a moment's thought, is something a young kid will never replicate in real life. However, kids can be influenced by this game (and others) to believe stealing is an acceptable and profitable lifestyle alternative. I am not saying the game would accomplish this on its own, but together with other environmental circumstance, there is a risk some of the kids playing this game will turn to criminal activities in real life

Call me naive if you want, but I think nobody desires this, and between the more mature community of players and with a little GM cooperation, we have the strength to do and achieve better then this ... or moral obligation to try

@Brids17: You say there's no evidence of games influencing kids behavior. I ask, where is the evidence it will not?
This game has mature content ... too much mature? I dare not judge that. What i insist on is that with mature contents comes awareness to young kids that actions have consequences.
I respect you don't want to "parent" someone else's chid. I'm not asking anyone to do this. I am asking visibility of stealing is greater, so those who give a damn about it can act if they want.
On a side note, if you feel the misparenting or lack of induction of moral standards to children will never affect you, my personal view is to some extent you're refusing to face facts. when a society or communities deteriorates it's standards, all will feel it's effects, some more or some less, some sooner or some later
I do dislike thieves. I've been robbed and I've caught thieves with my bare hands. Enjoyed neither one of the experiences. It is not clouding my judgment, just would like to see things better in this game, and that it helps to set examples. I know I am not alone.
Why this approach to the topic finds such intense resistance from anyone is surprising to me. But I respect your opinion.
Regarding 3: I personally advocate that you get a criminal record only when caught. so most inactives will be robbed and you would get away with it, no "rap sheet"

@Brids17: You say there's no evidence of games influencing kids behavior. I ask, where is the evidence it will not? ...I dare not judge that.

Then I shall dare.

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt.  We call it FUD for short.  While a cliche acronym, it represents a profound foolishness.  We breed strife and strike out at "enemies" all in the name of what we do not know but fear to be true.  Fear is not a tool of reason, but irrationality.  And when utilized in the name of morality, it turns its followers into perpetrators of the very evils they profess to fight.

Fear of theories grounded in nothing but free association and speculation has no business influencing yourself alone--and much less serving as grounds to dictate the creativity, design, or activities of others.  I am a fundamentalist Christian and thus member of a the group most reviled for this very practice--most notably by a majority who call themselves such but have no concept whatsoever of their God's attitudes regarding even the things He genuinely does oppose.  I say this so you will fully understand how familiar I am with this subject, even as I also tell you that such people are the greatest scourge of developed society.  People who listen to FUD are nothing but sociopaths who have finely honed the most destructive of human capabilities: the power to condemn all matters causing personal distaste (whether truly immoral, hurtful or ungodly or not), and justify evils done against fellow man while remaining flawlessly blind to the evils within.

You may think I speak in overstatement or hyperbole.  I assure you I do not.  Nor do I further argue the subject at hand with you, for you have already chosen assumption and emotion over observation and reason.  You do this in elevating arbitrarily defined and contextualized labels over functional intentions of the user (predetermined causality), and again in appealing to uncertainty using argument from ignorance.  Given the topic of kids and gaming, false-dichotomy backed correlation as causation and anecdotal evidence are no doubt soon to come--and I often wonder what special mental power we adults gain that magically protects us from any real mental or emotional conditioning gaming may cause.  Frankly, you do it yet again when you choose to identify one non-experiential fantasy exercise as more pattern-forming than another when both are equally disjoint from reality.  The link between depriving another player of goods by a game-sanctioned mechanic and actually robbing someone in real life is extremely tenuous at best, but the pleasure some take from dominating others by any means connects military actions to many real-life activities such as bullying--of course with that link we cannot so easily ignore the correlation's true relationship with causation rooted in the heart of the child.

On this foundation of appeal to emotion, no understanding can be constructed.  Just be careful that your personal convictions do not become a crusade.  Without proof of hurt--and sometimes there is some, but I seriously doubt you'll find it here in a game lacking even suspension of disbelief let alone domestic or personal violence, sexual experiences, or even rebellion against authority--you are nothing more than a moral vigilante in support of an entirely arbitrary standard.  And I care not how carefully reasoned your deductions are--basing them on a false premise renders it all gibberish no matter how sensible or intelligent they sound.

Rugre wrote: I am asking visibility of stealing is greater, so those who give a damn about it can act if they want.

As mentioned here and in your other thread, there are ways of defending and finding thieves. Set up a rune, join an alliance, build lots of T1 thieves but don't use them, try to get on to see if you have any incoming diplo attacks when you can. There's way to find them or prevent them you just seem to be ignoring it. If I don't lock my door can I really get angry that a thief walked in the front door and stole everything?

Rugre wrote: On a side note, if you feel the misparenting or lack of induction of moral standards to children will never affect you, my personal view is to some extent you're refusing to face facts. when a society or communities deteriorates it's standards, all will feel it's effects, some more or some less, some sooner or some later

I'm not saying they wont effect me, I'm saying it's not my job to do anything about it. If they parents aren't parenting their children, that's their business and there's really very little I can do about it. At most, I could try to get the child taken away, however I doubt someones going to lose their child because they let them play a mature video game.

Rugre wrote: I do dislike thieves. I've been robbed and I've caught thieves with my bare hands. Enjoyed neither one of the experiences. It is not clouding my judgment, just would like to see things better in this game, and that it helps to set examples. I know I am not alone.

You seem to be confusing real life with a video game. This games purpose isn't to make people become better people or deter violent or immoral behavior, it's meant for it's players to have fun. If the former is what you're looking for I'm afraid you're playing the wrong game.

Rugre wrote: Why this approach to the topic finds such intense resistance from anyone is surprising to me. But I respect your opinion.

Because you're ideas are 1) irrational 2) unbalanced and 3) needless. You got your stuff stolen by a bunch of thieves because you didn't have the proper defenses to prevent it and now due real life experiences you're getting worked up over a situation that really isn't as bad as you seem to think it is.

Rugre wrote: Regarding 3: I personally advocate that you get a criminal record only when caught. so most inactives will be robbed and you would get away with it, no "rap sheet"

This could work, though I can still see problems with this. Not all inactives are those population 0 towns you see everywhere. I suppose they could make it so the target had to be active for it to count but that would pose a problem as well. When you're at war with people thieves are used strategically. This means if you're sending diplo attacks at enemies, you're going to build up a record. The record would have to state why you sent them, who the target was and various other details. This is why I can't see this working. In real life a criminal record is very detailed, real people file real reports. That's not possible in the game and so people would still get wrongly labeled.

Several inputs to take in. I'll try not be long in response.

@ Noryasha: Thieves being patriots that hurt enemies stockpiles: could be done exclusively by saboteurs. SE, lucerna, near mal motsha border
@ Honored: my level of english was stretched to take in all your feedback :-) but it is appreciated. I am not in crusade. I would like to see this game take a higher moral ground on thievery, and send a more accurate message about actions and reactions related to this activity, here and in RL, to the younger players. The reason i took the time to write this much, is due to the fact I am under the impression that top players and alliance in this game do have a notion of fair play and positive influence of much higher calibre that i've seen in other similar games. If you disagree on my views I respect that and have put forward all my arguments, so i am not about to repeat them
What I would appreciate is that everyone takes a look back and get back on topic, the analysis of enhancements suggested to thieves feature
@Bartimeus - I'm not blinded. If I made a game like this, I would not have this feature. But I've come to the conclusion many like the feature, and it will not go away. So I evolved to trying to find a compromise, where players that walk away from it get a benefit in growth on having streets policed by police, not thieves, and player caught stealing get denounced for criminal action. Any case, thanks for getting back on topic
@Brids17 - We'll never see eye to eye on this. I feel that it mostly my fault, I've been unable to transmit to you I am not trying to change the world, just would like that influence things so that in a little way this game could send a better message. I am not expecting you or anyone to either join in this, but if there are others like me out there, why can't we have tools and means to try and follow this? regarding 3 - in the rap sheet, i would look only at thieves as cause of dislike. if you steal from inactives, there should be a way of scouting and / or dispelling to determine if you will be named if you attempt theft
@kitmub: only furious at thieves because it is not essential to a game like this, and sends a bad message. bullying also would be a danger, but is inevitable that it happens, here i am realist. besides, seeing the top alliances and training alliance stance on that, i feel the community has found its own way to regulate this. sabotage / assassination for me are military actions aimed at military targets, and here I agree with Brids17, only a very disturbed mind would find a parallel between this in game and duplicate in RL.

failed miserably in keeping it short. sorry guys