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The_Dude View Drop Down
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Points: 2396 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Consone: Who is your leader?
    Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 04:20
Consone,

Who is your leader?

Who accepts responsibility for Consone decisions and actions?

Who has authority to bind Consone to agreements?

Who has power of attorney for Consone to settle the war?

Thank you for your time.
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Grego View Drop Down
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Points: 729 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 08:42
You could ask EU same questions...
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Points: 315 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 09:04
If Consone intentionally wasn't very forthcoming with these details before the war, do you think that will change now?  Seems to me like answering these questions could be very strategically beneficial to team-H? (I've lost track of who all is in that mosh pit).  Then they'd know who to apply pressure to to end this thing (assuming they wanted to, I mean, so maybe they wouldn't).  Since no one seems to begrudge H? for their secrets, I'm having a hard time holding it against Consone for theirs.

It's actually what I've wondered before about huge confederations in general: who is actually in charge, and  how decision making is made.  I received a passable (but not optimal) answer from Rill about the Crows before wherein the short version would be "utter chaos" (which I suspect is very similar to Consone's model).

I figure if the community is going to find a passable setup for messy confederacies (do you suppose that's the right term for a web of confederations?) -- that is, we don't have incidents like this every other month -- they're gonna need a better system of government.  Personally, I'm also not a fan of the "H? does whatever, and everyone else just falls in line behind them" model either.

How do you imagine confederation government would best work?  Some sort of organized representation from each of the member alliances?  Also, will that be a problem with some of the individuals involved?  It seems like within alliances the powerful personalities float to the top, and it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to assume that not everyone can gracefully share authority.
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Points: 456 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 10:04
Originally posted by The_Dude The_Dude wrote:

Consone,

Who is your leader?

Who accepts responsibility for Consone decisions and actions?

Who has authority to bind Consone to agreements?

Who has power of attorney for Consone to settle the war?

Thank you for your time.
In relation to your question " Who has power of attorney for Consone to settle the war?"
 
As a neutral, it's clear to me and to most readers of the forum that Consone is a  confederation of 11 alliances. Despite attempts to portray it as otherwise by H? and their  hangers on.
 
 I imagine that Consone, "if " it decides on a spokesperson,  for the confed,   will contact and negotiate direct with H? leadership and not with a less important sideshow like Res.
 
Having said that,  we can cannot escape the reality that when H? made it's declaration of war
it actually declared war against 11 seperate alliances who are members of a loose confederation based on mutual cooperation and friendship and not on Bloc with a single governmental form which (incidentally ,TD, you have recently termed " snake pit").
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Points: 310 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 10:10
Originally posted by Darmon Darmon wrote:

If Consone intentionally wasn't very forthcoming with these details before the war, do you think that will change now?  Seems to me like answering these questions could be very strategically beneficial to team-H? (I've lost track of who all is in that mosh pit).  Then they'd know who to apply pressure to to end this thing (assuming they wanted to, I mean, so maybe they wouldn't).  Since no one seems to begrudge H? for their secrets, I'm having a hard time holding it against Consone for theirs.


I doubt its all that much of a big deal though its helpful in talks I am sure. I am pretty sure you know the decision makers on RHY, H?, etc side but it doesn't seem to be the focus of consone to do what you suggest. It does however benefit both sides to have someone that can answer for a particular side. Lets say if terms were brought up then who would one talk to? Would they have to draw a deal with each individual guild that is involved?

So not really much of a secret tbh. Otherwise you honestly may disband Consone now because as it stands it seems any of you can start a fight with someone and your all going to enter random wars from now on. Being that there is no central authority it seems it will be hard to avoid anything but that.

Lets say I am a guild in Consone I can just pull another Absa and go smack another guild or at least harass them until they are provoked into picking a fight with me. Once this happens since there is no over sight of the decisions for the wars done by Consone as there is no actual leaders which pretty much means anyone that pleads for help will get the full unquestioned support of Consone. I imagine this is going to be painful as an alliance and at some point its going to make the confed of Consone look like warmongers if it didn't already after picking a fight with RHY and calling in a huge alliance.
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Points: 464 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 13:00
You did notice that you idea of picking a fight was to destroy a hostile occupying army 2 squares from SkB towns.  You did also notice that it was not Consone that started sieging and razing towns because of that.  You did also notice that it was H? that declared war when Consone started breaking those sieges in defense of it's members.  And you did notice that when all of Consone declared war, there was not a mass of sieges by it's members.  War was declared in defense of it's allies, not to recklessly attack our "enemies".  I don't doubt that there are things that Consone could have done much better or differently, but a mutual defense confederation will defend it's members.
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Rorgash View Drop Down
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Points: 894 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 13:04
and you didnt notice Absa helping their ally by starting this war?
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Elmindra View Drop Down
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Points: 464 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 13:09
If destroying an occupying army 2sqrs away from your towns after it had been asked to leave is all it takes to start a war, then why isn't everyone at war?  This happens all the time.  Why do you think everyone had to change their alliance profiles to specifically state that if you put an army on a resource in their 5 or 10sqr radius it will be removed?  Not arguing that absa destroyed the army, but notice was given that the army should be removed, and notice was given far enough in advance that an army was enroute to send a messenger as well.  What would the BSH response be to an army that camped a rare resource 2sqrs from your towns and refused to leave?

Edited by Elmindra - 18 Oct 2012 at 14:19
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ES2 View Drop Down
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Points: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 14:10
Originally posted by Elmindra Elmindra wrote:

If destroying an occupying army 2sqrs away from your towns after it had been asked to leave is all it takes to start a way, then why isn't everyone at war?  

Well..
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Points: 169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2012 at 15:35
Originally posted by ES2 ES2 wrote:

Originally posted by Elmindra Elmindra wrote:

If destroying an occupying army 2sqrs away from your towns after it had been asked to leave is all it takes to start a way, then why isn't everyone at war?  

Well..


Maybe this is not an excuse for the way Absa behaved but it appears to be a fair question. The answer might be:

1. H? does not fear its supremacy being challenged by most of the alliances involved in that kind of action.
2. Absa was called in too early. It would have been much smarter, if SkB would have dealt with that issue by itself initially. If every conflict, particular such a minor one, leads to the activation of the entire CONSONE network, world peace is clearly threatened.

Anyway, to return to the initial question: Not even all alliances have ONE leader (LWO being an extreme example but also most other alliances I am in contact with do not have one person that can/wants to decide everything). Any such confederation like CONSONE, Crowalition (not sure how this is with Dark Star Dominion or the Night Confederation) can probably not be created, suggesting to the other alliances: “Hello, you want to join our large Confederation? You only need to kiss my butt and follow all my commands, but we tell everyone else we are just friends.” However, this shows what I said elsewhere. If you want to make someone look like a bully, you will be able to find a way to do it. So all (or at least most) this who started what, who is a bully, who behaves fair is either naïve or hypocrite. In the end it depends what friends you have (or might gain) and how many troops you have.

There is no leader of CONSONE. And I do not like the attitude of demanding that whatever alliance/confederation needs to have a leader that is responsible for whatever happens (and this is not only directed to this thread but I used to have the problem before). We are all (more or less) responsible people. If you want to join an alliance with a strong command structure, so you do not need to think and act for yourself, there are possibilities. If you want to join an alliance that allows you to act more freely, possibilities are more limited. As soon as there is a conflict between individual players, other alliances will make pressure to the alliance leadership and will hold them responsible for the action of the member.

On the other hand there is a requirement for strong leadership and particularly communication. I thought Jasche did not do a bad job as CONSONE diplomat.
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