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The_Dude 
Postmaster General
Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2396 |
 Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 21:54 |
 Drejan wrote:
Quackers wrote:
Umm in 125-150 days I should have around 9k-10k equipment for my all cavalry city. That includes 9-10k vanguard chainmail armor, 9-10k elf horses, and 9-10k war spears.
I just don't see how you came up with 730 days.
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What i do not understand is after your 5 months of buiding, after bilions of gold invested, weeks of real time to harvast, trade and craft you have 10k units equipped that can be killed in 1 attack by half of any of my army that can be replaced in 1-2 mont max for 1/10 of the cost.
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It looks like the design will encourage smaller armies using the crafted goods. Hence the doubling bonus techs limited to specific division sizes. As well as the cost and production times.
I am thinking the idea is that the craft equipped units are to be treated as Elite Shock Troops and tailored to specific instances - defending on a hill, attacking in Jungle, defending against Cav, etc. The military oriented player will have supplies of different types of craft goods and prepare his Shock Army tailored to a specific moment. The 10K craft equipped army will be possible, but I do not see it as necessarily the most effective and efficient use of the craft goods.
Think of the craft goods as for Special Forces that support Regular Army for unique and special situations - not a replacement for Regular Army.
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Cleopatra
New Poster
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 35 |
Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 22:11 |
Drejan wrote:
Quackers wrote:
Umm in 125-150 days I should have around 9k-10k equipment for my all cavalry city. That includes 9-10k vanguard chainmail armor, 9-10k elf horses, and 9-10k war spears.
I just don't see how you came up with 730 days.
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What i do not understand is after your 5 months of buiding, after bilions of gold invested, weeks of real time to harvast, trade and craft you have 10k units equipped that can be killed in 1 attack by half of any of my army that can be replaced in 1-2 mont max for 1/10 of the cost.
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This complaint doesn't sound like you have a problem with the crafting system, it sounds like you think the penalties for war in general are to steep.
The way I see, the deficit of PvP in the game is caused by the high penalties. It is true that if you aren't willing to lose that many specialized armors, you probably are better off not making them. But my impression is that for the most part people are very reluctant to PvP anyways, because fighting even with normal, non-crafted armors, is so costly.
Basically, my understanding of people's problem with the new crafting system is that it has made PvP optionally more expensive than it already was, and didn't add any ability to lower your losses to any great extent.
I am not sure, however, that the PvP system is even really the actual problem. I think the production time of basic resources is the actual root of the problem. It takes months, even with assistance from an alliance, to build up your original cities to a point where you can actually consider fighting with anyone, and by the time you get to that point, you have spent so much time and effort doing so that players are unwilling to risk having to repeat the process.
In my opinion the new crafting stuff is fine, its the basic resource and basic building times that probably need to be adjusted if an increase in PvP is the desired goal. Lowering basic resource and basic building production times would also probably help retain new players as they would find it easier to get started in the game. But I doubt the developers have any plans to do any of that because I think that the long building up time for new accounts is their method for combating multiple account abuse.
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twilights
Postmaster
Joined: 21 May 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 915 |
Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 22:53 |
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it is realy crazy that we are crafting equipment that can only be used in military actions but wait, they cost too much time and effort to use them cause we can lose them. why cant we make plows or hammers or such things that speed build times or increase resource production amounts, just plain crazy to have crafted military items in a game that discourages player against player military action...devs think on it
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Rill
Postmaster General
Player Council - Geographer
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 6903 |
Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 23:44 |
I have a new hypothesis about why there is not that much PvP in Illy. Perhaps it doesn't have nearly as much to do with game mechanics as people think. Perhaps what has really happened is that the developers have created a world that people want to interact with in the long term -- a truly perpetual game.
If that is the case, then people will act with more care and more thought for long-term consequences. Yes, part of it is about not losing cities, but it's also about relationships and reputation, which are as valuable or more valuable in a truly long-term game as any city.
A city of reasonable size can be built in six months, or much more quickly by use of prestige. On the other hand, relationships and reputation are the work of months and years. And people are loathe to risk those for the sake of a little war.
I don't know whether this is true or not. But I think it's just as rational an interpretation of the evidence as alternative hypotheses. If it is true, then there is little the developers can do, short of setting an end date for the server (which would probably cause many people to leave) or setting a beginning date for another one, that would change the current pattern.
In other words: It's not the devs. It's us. Perhaps we need to own our own actions, lack of action, and complex motivations for such.
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bansisdead
Postmaster
Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 609 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 00:02 |
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Rill, you know you are right, ppl dont pvp because they either have been destroyed by GC or the threat of destruction by GC weights on their mind. I dont believe this is to-do with the devs but the community, for reasons unknown to me. What ever the reason this game, or the community has a conscience, which isn't a bad thing. It is a fine balance between impeding on gameplay and making the game fair for all, which I feel illy has the closest balance of the both, but its not a perfect balance, and I'm sure ppl can link lots of situations which counter my view. Most games similar to this are pay to win...
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Salararius
Postmaster
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 519 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 01:43 |
Every time there is a "tournament" millions of troops are destroyed, only to be rebuilt. If people were reluctant to engage in battle because of troop build times why would so many die in tournaments?
People fight all the time in Illy, they don't fight each other because we don't have anything worth the cost.
People need something worth the cost but something that doesn't have an economic value in the game.
Perhaps if there were a "capital" in each district and that capital had 30 resource plots and 30 city plots people would fight for that? Maybe the capital is just a regular city but one player could have 11 cities with the capital? In either case the capital could be captured but never razed.
Maybe if alliances got points for putting flags on squares there would be hundreds of little fights daily for territory. I mean, seriously, GC would quickly be overwhelmed by the petty squabbling.
I really don't know, I don't design games. Whatever is being fought for can't have a major economic value. If it did, the math is too simple and the outrage to great. If you are fighting for economic value, wars are either economically worth it (in which case the winner will take all) or they are not (and people won't fight). Make people fight for titles and extra cities and nonsense like that and you might see constant warfare. I very much believe that players in Illy send out their armies every tournament and I know most of those are quashed so I don't see players having a general problem loosing troops.
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twilights
Postmaster
Joined: 21 May 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 915 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 03:10 |
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i have to agree with some of the above posts, this game is more of a social group that happens to use the game as a meeting place, most of us that want other style of play that threatens these relationships are verbally told that they are not welcomed in gc and in the forums, it is different in that it is not really the game that is the main function here but these relationships, the question the devs have to ask themselves is this what they really made this game for, a social meeting place first and a game that can be played second, we as players have to accept this for what it is and stop upsetting the relationships of these people, sorry for being such a pain in your behind but now i understand your need for the current game play........hugs and snuggles.....again i am sorry, i thought this was a game
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abstractdream
Postmaster General
Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Location: Oarnamly
Status: Offline
Points: 1857 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 03:45 |
@gameplayer: lol
Rill hit the proverbial nail on the teeny, tiny head. No endgame makes Illy an entirely different animal. Long range goals are possible, just as they are in RL, because there is no deadline. Even players with no long range goals understand the significance of no endgame (even if not consciously.)
Loosing things that took time to build is terrible (for many) but not the end of the world. There is time to rebuild, because there is no deadline. This means that PvP is entirely feasible.
So, why not PvP? Simple answer: reputation. If one is to thrive in the community, regardless of what group you are in manners and respect for others (at minimum within the group) is a must. Most of us are part of groups that are trying to grow and war is counter to that.
Don't get me wrong, just because I believe war is counterproductive MOST of the time does not mean I believe it is out the window on every occasion. In Illy, just as in RL, war has a place. I believe that this sentiment is what divides us, everywhere.
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Bonfyr Verboo
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EvilKatia
Forum Warrior
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 210 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 04:48 |
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As my friend Ras sum it up : cant wait for the factions to go live....
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Kat
'They have to always turn a forum post into a badly written book that gives a headache and takes your iq points' - AO
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The_Dude
Postmaster General
Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2396 |
Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 06:26 |
bansisdead wrote:
Rill, you know you are right, ppl dont pvp because they either have been destroyed by GC or the threat of destruction by GC weights on their mind. *** |
That's hilarious!
Just cuz you ain't PvPing doesn't mean it ain't happen', Cowboy.
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29JUL12 - MAJOR RELEASE (The New Age)
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